A-Cat Wing

Thilo

New member
3
0
Berlin
I´m proud to show you our new A-Cat wing.

Photo by Andreas Hartmann

/monthly_04_2012/post-61542-001411900%201335265909_thumb.png

 

Attachments

  • C Andres Hartmann 1263.png
    C Andres Hartmann 1263.png
    860.3 KB · Views: 4

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
433
Beautiful!...I think this is the next area of exploration for the class.

 

pieterjan

Member
55
6
holland
http://prezi.com/qm-slsakdqt3/need-for-speed/

Check out this link . pretty impressive project.

Will be really interesting to see how Thilo is performing against the soft rigs........

His wing looks highly sophisticated,state of the art.

Looking forward to see what can be learnt in terms of performance possibilities on an A.

The latest soft rigs with the flexible masts are so well developed nowadays ,they will be hard to beat over a wider wind range...

But good that Thilo is trying this out!

PJ

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,531
751
Sydney ex London
Great link, PJ and all credit to the team for posting all that detail.

This is something I have been planning for nearly 2 years but keep pulling back from for one reason and one reason only - weight. It's not just a matter of keeping the boat down to 75kgs, which I believe is achievable. The real problem is the distribution of that weight. In all the calculations I have done, the centre of gravity of the rig moves up and the overall weight is heavier than a conventional mast and sail. This isn't a problem on flat water but ever time I get close to starting to build, I sail in choppy conditions and even witha conventional rig, I get horrified at how much the inertia from the rig effects upwind pitching. It leads me to believe that a wing will be faster on flat water and downwind, but upwind in chop, I think it is a killer. I then heard that this is exactly what Ben Hall found. He called it "the tail wagging the dog".

Unless shown otherwise, I will only go ahead when I can work out a way of building a wing that is light enough and with a low enough centre of gravity. As such, I would love to know how much this wing weighs! However, for all of that, great respect and all the best to Thilo for doing this. It's really exciting!

 

Dog

Super Anarchist
37,940
433
Interesting point, On the other hand, a soft sail requires high tension loads to shape it which have to be resolved in the structure. I would expect using a wing would permit reductions of weight in the platform. However the higher center of gravity is a negative. I guess in the C class with 25’ length pitching is less of an issue.

 

AClass USA 230

Anarchist
948
40
Louisiana
Great link, PJ and all credit to the team for posting all that detail.

This is something I have been planning for nearly 2 years but keep pulling back from for one reason and one reason only - weight. It's not just a matter of keeping the boat down to 75kgs, which I believe is achievable. The real problem is the distribution of that weight. In all the calculations I have done, the centre of gravity of the rig moves up and the overall weight is heavier than a conventional mast and sail. This isn't a problem on flat water but ever time I get close to starting to build, I sail in choppy conditions and even witha conventional rig, I get horrified at how much the inertia from the rig effects upwind pitching. It leads me to believe that a wing will be faster on flat water and downwind, but upwind in chop, I think it is a killer. I then heard that this is exactly what Ben Hall found. He called it "the tail wagging the dog".

Unless shown otherwise, I will only go ahead when I can work out a way of building a wing that is light enough and with a low enough centre of gravity. As such, I would love to know how much this wing weighs! However, for all of that, great respect and all the best to Thilo for doing this. It's really exciting!
It's exciting and sexy for sure and Simon is spot on to what Ben Hall found with his wing rig. But also what Ben found was the rig became a two person job to setup that required more time, is more complicated to transport, and is most assuredly more expensive than the current soft rigs. If Thilo has come up with a rig that overcomes the weight and upwind pitching issues above, the class will be holding it's breath as to whether the sailors who win the regattas will only be those who can afford and live with a wing. Not mentioned also is the durability issue. What happens in a hard capsize with the sailor possibly on top of the capsized rig? The current rigs have a good chance of surviving that type of incident unharmed. And finally, I doubt our insurance companies would insure a boat with a wing rig (or might initially but after the first claim for a broken wing ban us from coverage). I don't think the AC crews are calling Boat US when they crash one of their rigs.

I hate to be the one to sound negative because I do appreciate what Thilo and Ben have done but realistically with the current degree of development allowed in the class, a successful wing rig will have significant implications to how the class will progress in the future.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tornadosail2012

Super Anarchist
1,006
0
New Hampshire
It's exciting and sexy for sure and Simon is spot on to what Ben Hall found with his wing rig. But also what Ben found was the rig became a two person job to setup that required more time, is more complicated to transport, and is most assuredly more expensive than the current soft rigs. If Thilo has come up with a rig that overcomes the weight and upwind pitching issues above, the class will be holding it's breath as to whether the sailors who win the regattas will only be those who can afford and live with a wing. Not mentioned also is the durability issue. What happens in a hard capsize with the sailor possibly on top of the capsized rig? The current rigs have a good chance of surviving that type of incident unharmed. And finally, I doubt our insurance companies would insure a boat with a wing rig (or might initially but after the first claim for a broken wing ban us from coverage). I don't think the AC crews are calling Boat US when they crash one of their rigs.

I hate to be the one to sound negative because I do appreciate what Thilo and Ben have done but realistically with the current degree of development allowed in the class, a successful wing rig will have significant implications to how the class will progress in the future.
Bob,

You bring up many great points here. One that I had not thought about was the insurance issue and I can see this being a problem. When watching the vidoes on them setting this wing up it looks like three people were involved. I am not sure if this is because it is new and they are learning how to work with the wing or if it will take 2-3 each time it is raised. It also looks like a taleer wing then Ben's was and I remember the aluminum sail box he built for his for transporting it. this could be the other big issue with wings especially if you are traveling a distance to compete in events like the upcoming worlds in Islamorada.

TTS

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,531
751
Sydney ex London
The insurance issue is real, but I think that we would not be looking at total write offs and most wing damage could be repaired. It's interesting that in the Moths, Adam May made the lightest wing but it was also the strongest, due to it being more simple than the wings Bora had.

As for the rigging, I am sure that a wing can be rigged on your own with some thought about systems, but just like now with our current masts, most prefer to have a hand in raising the mast (or at least we do in Oz!). I can see that it is likely to take up more space in the boat park as the wing is assembled and prepared to be raised.

I suspect that if somebody makes a wing work in a wide enough range of conditions, we will find ways to overcome the problems. And overall, a wing is likely to be cheaper to run that the current rigs as you won't have to buy a new sail every season (or whatever it is you do). Even if wings develop and you need a new one, the second hand markety for a wing will be a lot better than for a sail, as it should be far easier to keep in good condition and it won't stretch.

 

AClass USA 230

Anarchist
948
40
Louisiana
The insurance issue is real, but I think that we would not be looking at total write offs and most wing damage could be repaired. It's interesting that in the Moths, Adam May made the lightest wing but it was also the strongest, due to it being more simple than the wings Bora had.

As for the rigging, I am sure that a wing can be rigged on your own with some thought about systems, but just like now with our current masts, most prefer to have a hand in raising the mast (or at least we do in Oz!). I can see that it is likely to take up more space in the boat park as the wing is assembled and prepared to be raised.

I suspect that if somebody makes a wing work in a wide enough range of conditions, we will find ways to overcome the problems. And overall, a wing is likely to be cheaper to run that the current rigs as you won't have to buy a new sail every season (or whatever it is you do). Even if wings develop and you need a new one, the second hand markety for a wing will be a lot better than for a sail, as it should be far easier to keep in good condition and it won't stretch.
Good points but I still believe handling (off the water) for a single sailor could be a significant issue to still overcome especially if you enjoy the simplicity and ease of setup, breakdown, and transport of the current rigs. I'm skeptical about a single sailor setting up a wing rig and getting on and off the water safely on a windy and gusty day. I like that I can launch or retrieve my boat with the sail down if I need to. I watched Ben launch his wing rig several times and he always had a helper standing by. A Moth wing is a lot smaller than an A-Class wing so I am sure much easier to deal with. Still, it would really turn the heads of my local yacht club to see me with a wing rig!

 
Top