A design question. How would she sail? If at all...

fastyacht

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Waterlust is decked and glued plywood. Different beast. plenty of both stiffness and strength.

 

BobBill

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Some names are missing, the above comments notwithstanding. All of these names are associated with sail boat construction and/or sailing outriggers.

First thought that came to mind was the beauty of the rowboat, and how to preserve that beauty and craftsmanship.

An outrigger can offer both worlds, without undo stress on owner and the rig. A means of preventing sideslip can be had with an application of "simple."

Outrigger and lee-board come to mind. 

Simple is best in the beginning; and always later. 

 
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I have a 1970 Phoenix kayak with decked over fore and aft, making it stiffer. Put a daggerboard well in and cobbled spars for a used Opti sail. Put shrouds and forestay to spread the loads. 

It sails very well indeed. Even after chopping it off to 16 feet, a licensing savings, it goes well upwind and down. 

Yes, I sail performance dinghies, so know when a craft sails well. In a blow I sit on the high side. Otherwise just sit facing forward on a cushion.

Dave Ellis

IMG_20140120_125212_280.jpg

 

Ben G

Member
156
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Brisbane
I think a lateen sail could be set up well, from a light tripod which clamps to the gunwhales and the stem fitting.  The sail could be rolled around the gaff spar when not needed.  The tripod base (thwart) can be forward of the sitting position.  The tripod can lean fore / aft to balance the 'helm' as needed.   a small line for T sheet would head to the floor, aft of the seat (maybe tie off on a footrest?).  The tripod could be made of very light composite tube, 20 or 25mm round carbon tubes for example, laminated together at the corners, and to padded shoes that sit on the gunwhale.

It would be very light and put very little load on the boat.  For the same sail area, it would be lighter, more efficient, and less loaded than an opti rig (which, imo, is a heavy and clunky solution for this).  The sail would be very simple to cut yourself as well.  It would be slower on a square run, but who sails square these days anyway...

And if you don't like it, you can remove it without having ruined a nice boat.

MS paint image attached...  I am not good at paint. Tripod in black, Lateen sail outline in blue (sort of)

Lateen sail.png

 

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Working to overcome my inner peace
I think a lateen sail could be set up well, from a light tripod which clamps to the gunwhales and the stem fitting.  The sail could be rolled around the gaff spar when not needed.  The tripod base (thwart) can be forward of the sitting position.  The tripod can lean fore / aft to balance the 'helm' as needed.   a small line for T sheet would head to the floor, aft of the seat (maybe tie off on a footrest?).  The tripod could be made of very light composite tube, 20 or 25mm round carbon tubes for example, laminated together at the corners, and to padded shoes that sit on the gunwhale.

It would be very light and put very little load on the boat.  For the same sail area, it would be lighter, more efficient, and less loaded than an opti rig (which, imo, is a heavy and clunky solution for this).  The sail would be very simple to cut yourself as well.  It would be slower on a square run, but who sails square these days anyway...

And if you don't like it, you can remove it without having ruined a nice boat.

MS paint image attached...  I am not good at paint. Tripod in black, Lateen sail outline in blue (sort of)

View attachment 366533
That looks good but maybe move the mast butt to the floor and lose the forestay, slide attach the mast at the A frame and you could sail it like sitting down on a sailboard, no rudder, just skegs.

 
I learned to sail by rigging my 16 ft canoe for sail.  I put the lateen rig from a Sunflower on it, which is probably about the same size as the Opti sail, or larger.  

For supporting the mast, I drilled a hole through the fiberglass stern seat and glued a wooden block with a hole in it to the bottom of the boat as a mast step.  I chose the stern seat and sailed the canoe backwards because the stern seat was closer to the end of the boat - a lateen rig has the mast well forward of the center of area of the sail - and it allowed me to put my weight closer to the center of the boat.

Instead of a daggerboard, I made leeboards.  These were bolted to a thwart with vertical ends, making it H shaped.  This thwart was clamped with U bolts to two aluminum rails that ran from the stern seat to the center thwart.  I was able to move the daggerboards fore and aft to find the location where the balance of the helm was best.  I never did make a rudder for it, and just steered with a paddle.  In light winds, I could make a J or sweep stroke to maneuver when the boat had little steerage way.

The leeboards were made from mahogany and shaped by eye to a cambered airfoil shape with the flat side to the outside.  The top of the leeboard had a raked back handle, from which a shock cord ran forward to the stern seat and a pendant with a hook on the end running aft.  When the pendant was released, the shock cord held the board up in the retracted position.  To put the board down, I reached forward, grabbed the pendant, and hooked it on the center thwart.  

It was no problem balancing the boat by shifting my weight.  However, I did notice that when I had to sit on the gunwale, there was a noticeable twist to the boat!

I think something similar would be appropriate for your rowboat.  I recommend leeboards instead of a daggerboard.  They don't require putting a trunk in the hull, and you wouldn't have to compromise the ability to row it.  I think you could put a reinforced hole in your deck with a matching step for the mast.  The leeboards could go just ahead of the riggers and retract up under the riggers.  Add a transom hung rudder, and you'd be set.  Decide on the leeboard position first, then position the mast so the sail and boards have the right amount of lead. 

Given the freeboard under the riggers, you might need to go with a fairly large span for the boards in order to get the area you need.  That is goodness from a hydrodynamic point of view.  Since the rowing ability would not be compromised, in shallow water you could retract both boards and row until you got to deep enough water to put the boards down.

 
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Ben G

Member
156
1
Brisbane
That looks good but maybe move the mast butt to the floor and lose the forestay, slide attach the mast at the A frame and you could sail it like sitting down on a sailboard, no rudder, just skegs.
Maybe to clarify - the intention is the gaff on the lateen sail would hang under the tripod (in black) somehow.  There isn't a forestay - all lines in black would be a tube.  Looking at the seat position in the photo agian, I'd move the 'A' frame forward to sit just behind the front bulkhead.  

But it's just an idea.. that you could experiment with, without drilling or cutting holes in the boat, and without load from rigging cables

 

Sidecar

…………………………
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Tasmania
Even simpler that leeboards are chine runners. You have nothing to lose:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?158928-A-sharpie-with-chine-runners#post_3679903

I  retrofitted one my proa (leeward side only) and it seems to work as well as the 2 metre x 0.4 metre long foil (bottom half of profile being a half ellipse) that it replaced. Lighter, less frontal area ( a small fraction), less surface area (only 50%) can’t hit anything, especially the bottom at speed. No moving parts, less stress and more effective at slow speeds....... Have a look at Matt Leyden boats.

Please ignore the crude mark up, that is for a leeward moustache lifting foil-ette which is not going to happen any time soon, if ever......

View attachment 366557


93182688-C125-4AC0-9B9F-A0AE36E21B31.jpeg

 
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Panoramix

Super Anarchist
I’ll have to go check the length of the Allen Rowing shell I have. It was always awkward to me, I may now know why...it was as if you had to wait for a second before you slid back slowly  or it would kill your speed.
That's not specific to your boat and also why rowing coaches keep shouting at newbies "Don't rush the return". You need to put "your hand away" very smoothly, lean forward once your arms are stretched and only then start pulling on your legs to bring your butt forward (so toward the stern). If you bring back arms, shoulders and leg together (which is the instinctive thing to do) you will indeed kill your speed (to be more precise you are throwing the boat forward but water resists it so body + boat ends up slowing down together!)

I've rowed quite a bit, raced fixed seats and slidey seats  boats and IMHO with proper technique, you would need a rather poor rowing boat for the slidey seat to be ineffective as you get quite a bit of extra power from using your legs more effectively. If you want something even more efficient, you need sliding stretchers, they are prohibited in races for a reason! On a short boat the gain is probably more substantial as I would think that you loose even more speed from the pitching.

Once you know what is like to glide on the water rowing, it is highly addictive... You've been warned, practise these tips at your own risk!

 

Steveromagnino

Super Anarchist
There are a few very easily driven windsurfers which are like a canoe and have some of the same compromises.

I'd suggest the idea of a removable seat which is padded and locked in using the oar structure to which the main sheet links; very small and simple sail with minimal tension and as light as possible opti sail maybe ok; for rudder probably some sort of long oar or similar removing the need for major structure out the stern for gudgeons etc if possible.  Maybe it's another bolt in cross brace or something that is locked to the stern that can be completely removed again. 

If done half ok, that linkage to the 2 gunwhales might keep the boat a little stiffer as well and will be the same structure for the mainsheet tension.

For centreboards, perhaps consider some sort of structure also attached to the seat structure with 2 very small daggerboards on each side

Basically, try to make it so that everything to do with sailing is removeable other than the mast step and the rudder gudgeon/system, so the boat still rows well.

Lovely looking boat.

 

BobBill

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I might add, take this to boatdesign.net also...heed the murmers of Parr and Dierking, and Dierking's book on sailing outriggers.

You have a gem, retro fitting it must be done with care, if at all. Simple...and it is too late for thoughts of shunter...and too complicated. Simple.

 

dave-j

Member
Would you convert a Laser into a rowing shell?  You certainly could, but why?  I see this as the same.  You have a GORGEOUS rowing vessel.  Why mess with it?

 

fastyacht

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I made a squaresail for my skateboard as a kid. Two thick dowels and a bedsheet. Held with my hands. Worked good.

 

BobBill

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SE Minnesota.
Dig generally.

Sounds "familiar-simple," only we had square roller skates and sidewalk cracks were adversive.

In any case, masting requires secure step...a

Also base-damaged (usually cracks) wind/spars (usually carbon) can be acquired and repaired and even ferruled for other uses.

Do not forgot boatdesign.net 

 
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Omer

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Thank you all for your good advices. Since many of you suggested that i do not mess with her and go tinker with another boat. That is exactly what i shall do. 

I hate to admit that i have wooden sailing dinghy (the one in the foreground) anyway. So it will be a stupid thing to ask the rowboat to sail as dave-j and many others put it clearly.

Piratand kerevit 1 007.JPG

 

JohnMB

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The designer Phil Bolger (best known for designing very practical box-like boats, but also did a wide range of other types) once wrote " Apparently it's a basic human instinct, when in the presence of a lovely rowing boat, to say "What a nice boat! Let's put a sail on it!"

FB- Doug
This is a very real urge :)

And not necessarily wrong, part of the fun can just be figuring out how to do this without too great a compromise. The next part is actually executing the design in an effective way. Actually sailing the boat is a small part of the whole process.....

 

BobBill

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SE Minnesota.
This is a very real urge :)

And not necessarily wrong, part of the fun can just be figuring out how to do this without too great a compromise. The next part is actually executing the design in an effective way. Actually sailing the boat is a small part of the whole process.....
+1, and the actual sailing may be only a satisfactory proof...depending...

 




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