A Plea for Teams to vote against the One Design AC

[GauchoGreg]

SimonN,

Well said. I am rapidly losing interest in the AC thanks to ACEA/Coutts shenanigans. I feel the same way, possibly to a lesser degree, about the Volvo Ocean Race. While the racing is, undeniably, closer part of the fun (for me) was to see the different ways the designers and engineers endeavored to try to solve the same equation. Some boats turned out fantastic and others were complete dogs. Usually the first leg or two of the VOR - and the initial rounds of the AC - led to lots of challenges and changes for the less well-prepared teams.

Maybe that's not as comercially attractive as everyone being on the same page from the start but it is a hell of a lot more compelling story to talk about the work which goes into the designing and engineering done by each team. Arguably, one of the best storylines, besides the great racing in the finals, was all of the changes made by BOTH Oracle and ETNZ. Think about it for a moment...if they had been OD the entire time we wouldn't have had ETNZ "secretly" foiling and learning their foiling gybes, Oracle trying (and failing) to foil on their v1 boat and all of the aero packages (among many other changes) undertaken by the teams. It's interesting stuff and it will all be gone if they go OD for the next event.

The fact is the people who will bring the ratings are not sailing fans...they are more akin to NASCAR fans. They are attracted to the sport for the high speeds, potential for carnage and close racing. The rest of us (the sailors) are interested in that AND the balance (the development work, the lop-sided round robin racing, watching the underdog teams either catch up or fail miserably trying, etc.). We're the ones who will (or won't) be the ones who buy the gear and remain fans between events...not the people they're trying to reach with their misguided attempts at commercializing the sport.

Tom

Totally agree on VOR, and how it signals to me that I could totally lose interest in the AC. I used to be a huge fan of the VOR, but I have TOTALLY lost interest in this current edition as it has gone OD. I saw that they were going around the Horn so pulled up the video, but I have had no interest in who is winning, and other than thinking, "wow, they are close together after all those miles", I have no interest to see who wins this leg. To me a HUGE component of these races is the difference in the boats, right there with knowing they are cutting edge. Take away those elements, and the closeness of racing and the number of competitors is irrelevant to me.

 

[GauchoGreg]

So instead of different boats racing we will have different winch setups racing. Riveting.

And different foils, rudders, aero, colors, and ... sailors!
Despite looking pretty similar the OR Turbo looked to be a hotter performer than the AR Turbo recently, so there must be differentiation to be had. It probably won't be too bad, but it's hard to say until we see.

What's the connection between the 45X and the F48 in your imagination?

One had a tiny irrelevant bit of hull specified and the rest completely open. The other (as it's been described so far anyway) is even more restricted and part sharing than the AC62 was going to be. Chalk and cheese.

Your only hope is that they found a 'third-way' today.

I think this is what we can all hope for. Hopefully it was one of those situations where you propose something sooooo shitty that when you back off to something just a little shitty, they jump on it. Rational people would have to recognize that allowing the platforms to be different, along with being smaller, would make the entire project much less expensive while retaining some semblance of the principle of the Cup. Further, if it is really true that the platform is little more than a foil/wing delivery system, then the lower budget teams would be able to spend significantly less on the platform without commensurate loss in competitiveness. The Italians could spend a fortune on the appearance (we all know the Italians love good looking boats) and be happy as clams.

 

[GauchoGreg]

1st choice - Smaller size ok but with box rules. No OD

2nd choice Smaller size one design wing the rest open design

^This. Exactly my sentiments.

 

[peterivanac]

You've missed the best reason to allow this to go ahead.

So that the non-Oracle team that wins can change the rules back to something sensible and run a program that is less than laughable.

 

[jnavas]

You've missed the best reason to allow this to go ahead.

So that the non-Oracle team that wins can change the rules back to something sensible and run a program that is less than laughable.

Larry isn't going to allow a non-Oracle team to win. That's the whole point of what's going on.

 

[peterivanac]

Can someone tell me how Oracle will generate income if they lose?

What is the hidden trick?

You've missed the best reason to allow this to go ahead.

So that the non-Oracle team that wins can change the rules back to something sensible and run a program that is less than laughable.

Larry isn't going to allow a non-Oracle team to win. That's the whole point of what's going on.

And how does he ensure that with a one-design class?

 

[jnavas]

You've missed the best reason to allow this to go ahead.

So that the non-Oracle team that wins can change the rules back to something sensible and run a program that is less than laughable.

Larry isn't going to allow a non-Oracle team to win. That's the whole point of what's going on.

And how does he ensure that with a one-design class?

It won't really be a OD class, and Oracle already has a big advantage with 2 boats and sailing in the qualifier series. Larry will just keep moving the goalposts (and spending money) as necessary.

 

[peterivanac]

You've missed the best reason to allow this to go ahead.

So that the non-Oracle team that wins can change the rules back to something sensible and run a program that is less than laughable.

Larry isn't going to allow a non-Oracle team to win. That's the whole point of what's going on.

And how does he ensure that with a one-design class?

It won't really be a OD class, and Oracle already has a big advantage with 2 boats and sailing in the qualifier series. Larry will just keep moving the goalposts (and spending money) as necessary.

Not that big an advantage. Not compared to a 62.

 

[DA-WOODY]

Soooooo DC in 1988 sailed a 60' Winged Cat to an AC Victory

What direction are we going ??

Then / Now ..... What if 6 Months from AC-35 - "They" Decide to allow Wings & Hulls to a Box Rule ??

 

[overdraft]

OD is a thing... it works in a certain way, has certain advantages... but it's not the Americas Cup. AC has always been in good measure about boat development, and a portion of the excitement was always around who brought what to the party. With respect to the most recent AC, considered by many to have been quite spectacular, iirc the design rule was specifically crafted to preclude the possibility of foiling... now imagine what it would have looked like if that rule had been OD not development and no one had been allowed to solve the foiling puzzle.

 

[rgeek]

Totally agree on VOR, and how it signals to me that I could totally lose interest in the AC. I used to be a huge fan of the VOR, but I have TOTALLY lost interest in this current edition as it has gone OD. I saw that they were going around the Horn so pulled up the video, but I have had no interest in who is winning, and other than thinking, "wow, they are close together after all those miles", I have no interest to see who wins this leg. To me a HUGE component of these races is the difference in the boats, right there with knowing they are cutting edge. Take away those elements, and the closeness of racing and the number of competitors is irrelevant to me.

One of the problems with stripping out the design element is that it puts the focus on the sailors.

The big issue for the Volvo now is that the one team that was making an effort to show some character and what it's like to take physicaly take part in the race crashed into a reaf. For instance there seems to have been a complete melt down on Mapfre in the first leg but the whole story was shut down.

 

[zenmasterfred]

Aren't the NASCAR racers all the same, just different livery and power, driver, pit crews etc. Definitely dumbing down the AC to go one design. NASCAR is boring compared to custom open wheeled racing. Definitely will harsh my AC buzz. Watched the 72's in person, like watching NBA on TV and then seeing it in person, you cannot describe the size and power. You couldn't see the size and power of the 72's on TV. The 48's or whatever they are talking about are too similar to the 45's and 40's. Just Say'in!

 

[Petrie]

AC boats should be the most badass boats anywhere. Complete freedom on what makes the boat go fast. OD elsewhere.

45+ boats no problem, just allow the designers and crew to excel beyond what we ordinary people can achieve. There should be no way that a mortal can afford to buy and sail an off the shelf boat that goes that fast.

Transportation costs during the ACWS born by the organizers. Everything else by the teams.

 

[dogwatch]

Transportation costs during the ACWS born by the organizers.

Have you written a memo on that to Larry?

 

[DA-WOODY]

Foiling Reynolds 33's

Ya get 3 boats w yer entry fee

Better Record than GunBoat

Youth Groups and Minorities Could Enter

Don't have to bring em back

Cost effective

Move Venue to Jamaica Mon and Everything Gonga Bee AllWrite

 

[SimonN]

If they really do need to move to some one design components, here is my suggestion.

One design wing

One design hulls with basic, round tube, one design beams. From this the teams can develop their own compete platform complete with their own aero package, tramp and control systems.

Foils with basic rules but essentially open development.

We would see distinctive boats with the crews responsible for key performance aspects. The AC would then stay at the forefront of sailing development. I could get quite excited by boats like that, not least because it reflects what is going on with development in "lesser" cats. I would expect to see some real trickle down from that sort of package.

 

[edouard]

That's just about what they proposed. You may have wanted to check that before going on a crusade. I still post my thoughts on your initial "plea"

I know that members of a number opf teams read this forum, so i address this to them in the hope of avoiding what i believe will be a disaster for the America's Cup. I would welcome others posting as well, but please don't let this thread degenerate like the other threads. Well thought out support or rejection of the One Design ideas are welcomed. let's prove that SA can have a sensible voice that is work listening to.

First, it goes against the very spirit of the Cup which has always been about who can design, build and sail the better boat on a 1 on 1 basis. Changing that turns it into any other match race championship, even if it is in the fastest match race boats.

The J class, 12mR class an ACC class all severely restricted design freedom in crucial areas (they imposed restrictions on hull design and/or sail shape and/or materials). All these classes however served the cup well each in their own way and cover most of the history of the cup. A partial OD rule keeping open the design of the most crucial aspect of foiling catamarans, i.e foils, rudders and control systems of these elements as well as the control system of the wing (I would have personally preferred they keep the wing completely open as well) is not fundamentally different from these classes.

However, my biggest concern is that this move will drive away followers and reduce the interest in the AC. Each "package" that becomes one design has a significant impact on how the viewers see the boats, If, as suggested, we see a one design platform married to a one design wing but with free development on foils and systems, the general public will see boats that look identical going at different speeds for reasons that are hard to explain. The motor racing analogy would be having everybody driving the same car but that tyre development is free. With AC34, it was easy for people to understand there was a rule and that ETNZ and OTUSA had developed different boats within that rule. The discussion as to which was better was pretty transparent. It will not be if the new rules come in.

The general public could hardly distinguish J class boats from each other, 12mR boats from each other, or ACC boats from each other. Yet these 3 eras each brought a growing interest in the general public. On the other hand the 1988 AC and the 2010 AC (the only two DoG matches ever) were complete flops in terms of public interest. The general public at large is just not that interested in technology.

If these rules are brought in, the America's Cup will no longer be at the forefront of cat development. That will go back to the C Class and A Class. While I cannot comment on the C's, I know that in the next 2-3 years in the A's, we will see some pretty interesting stuff. Instead of it being trickle down from the AC as it has been from AC34, we will see the AC boats needing to play catch up in AC36. The chances are that by 2017, the AC boats won't even be the most advanced cats around.

The ACC era saw 5 versions of the same basic rule. Nothing would prevent future iterations from opening the design rules while keeping the fundamental dimensions unchanged. As for trickle down, the 12mR and ACC were hardly representative of the most advanced mono-hull designs in existence, the trickle down is however undisputed in terms of build techniques and materials as well as sail design, build and materials.

Finally, if costs really are the reason for going down this route, why aren't we seeing efforts to cut costs in other areas. the boats mustn't take the full force of the need for economy. They aren't even the most expensive part of the whole campaign. Of course, we all know the real reason why other costs aren't being tackled and that is because the biggest single cost, the one that is easiest to regulate, is wages and the very people making these decisions would be the ones who see their wages reduced, even if it is from some highly inflated number that is beyond the wildest dreams of any of them when the were young.

Boat size reduces not only build costs, it also reduces operating costs in all areas, transportation, sailing and shore crews sizes, etc. OD of some elements obviously reduces design costs of said elements, build costs can also be reduced by sharing them among teams. As for wages and personnel costs, there simply isn't any way to control them so why bother. The point isn't to prevent anyone from spending a fortune, it's to reduce the impact of brute financial power and open a window of opportunity for smaller syndicates. Exactly what the 12mR and ACC rule did. They didn't keep the bigeys from throwing piles of cash at the problem, but they opened the door to smaller outfits who served as first experience for countless sailors, designers and team managers.

The only reason to support the one design ideas is to preserve the money earning opportunities for the sailors. I appeal to the sailors and decision makers to put aside their personal greed and remember why the America's Cup was such a dream for them. I believe that every single sailor dreamed of sailing in the AC not for the money, but because it was the ultimate challenge, because of the acknowledgement of the history and traditions. To kill those in order to maintain the viability of teams is simply wrong.

Already answered that in part, and there is nothing new about sailors wanting to keep a gravy train alive (just think "grinders"). The best way to bring down wages is to increase competition. The more teams there are the more opportunities there are for talented sailors and designers to show their potential. Go through the crew lists, and design teams, of past ACs and you'll see that big names more often than not entered the world of AC in small syndicates.

 

[Barnyb]

A picture is worth a thousand words

 

[rgeek]

That's just about what they proposed. You may have wanted to check that before going on a crusade. I still post my thoughts on your initial "plea"

I know that members of a number opf teams read this forum, so i address this to them in the hope of avoiding what i believe will be a disaster for the America's Cup. I would welcome others posting as well, but please don't let this thread degenerate like the other threads. Well thought out support or rejection of the One Design ideas are welcomed. let's prove that SA can have a sensible voice that is work listening to.

First, it goes against the very spirit of the Cup which has always been about who can design, build and sail the better boat on a 1 on 1 basis. Changing that turns it into any other match race championship, even if it is in the fastest match race boats.

The J class, 12mR class an ACC class all severely restricted design freedom in crucial areas (they imposed restrictions on hull design and/or sail shape and/or materials). All these classes however served the cup well each in their own way and cover most of the history of the cup.

None the less none of these rules removed, or removed in part, the design challenge from the nature of the event.

I challenge you to point to an element in the J-Class, 12mR or IACC rules that restricted design to the point that it was not relevant to the result of a match or that so severally restricts the design of an element of the yacht that it became an identical feature of the yachts used for the Americas Cup.

I contend that they do not.

Same for the

A partial OD rule keeping open the design of the most crucial aspect of foiling catamarans, i.e foils, rudders and control systems of these elements as well as the control system of the wing (I would have personally preferred they keep the wing completely open as well) is not fundamentally different from these classes.

The still active interpretation of the DoG by the trustees explicitly exclude the use of elements that are a copy of those produced by another nation. At no point in the history of the Cup to date have one design elements been used across nations. They have been explicitly banned. The use of one design elements is at odds with the history of the Cup.

The removal of competitive advantage from the design of all the elements of the yacht is not only at odds with this, it's at odds with the original spirit in which the owners of the America set out to England

However, my biggest concern is that this move will drive away followers and reduce the interest in the AC. Each "package" that becomes one design has a significant impact on how the viewers see the boats, If, as suggested, we see a one design platform married to a one design wing but with free development on foils and systems, the general public will see boats that look identical going at different speeds for reasons that are hard to explain. The motor racing analogy would be having everybody driving the same car but that tyre development is free. With AC34, it was easy for people to understand there was a rule and that ETNZ and OTUSA had developed different boats within that rule. The discussion as to which was better was pretty transparent. It will not be if the new rules come in.

The general public could hardly distinguish J class boats from each other, 12mR boats from each other, or ACC boats from each other.

Refuted by the press coverage from the time.

Yet these 3 eras each brought a growing interest in the general public.

On what basis do you make this claim? In the J-Class era the level of public coverage was limited and governed by the dual ownership of the press by those active in the racing.

On the other hand the 1988 AC and the 2010 AC (the only two DoG matches ever) were complete flops in terms of public interest. The general public at large is just not that interested in technology.

I contend that the public was massively engaged by the technology in the run up to both events. It was the actual racing they didn't care for. Largely because it was a walk over.

If these rules are brought in, the America's Cup will no longer be at the forefront of cat development. That will go back to the C Class and A Class. While I cannot comment on the C's, I know that in the next 2-3 years in the A's, we will see some pretty interesting stuff. Instead of it being trickle down from the AC as it has been from AC34, we will see the AC boats needing to play catch up in AC36. The chances are that by 2017, the AC boats won't even be the most advanced cats around.

The ACC era saw 5 versions of the same basic rule. Nothing would prevent future iterations from opening the design rules while keeping the fundamental dimensions unchanged.

A guess at the future with no relevance to what is happening today with respect to the next match.

As for trickle down, the 12mR and ACC were hardly representative of the most advanced mono-hull designs in existence, the trickle down is however undisputed in terms of build techniques and materials as well as sail design, build and materials.

Not relevant to the lack of trickle down from a one design AC.

Finally, if costs really are the reason for going down this route, why aren't we seeing efforts to cut costs in other areas. the boats mustn't take the full force of the need for economy. They aren't even the most expensive part of the whole campaign. Of course, we all know the real reason why other costs aren't being tackled and that is because the biggest single cost, the one that is easiest to regulate, is wages and the very people making these decisions would be the ones who see their wages reduced, even if it is from some highly inflated number that is beyond the wildest dreams of any of them when the were young.

Boat size reduces not only build costs, it also reduces operating costs in all areas, transportation, sailing and shore crews sizes, etc. OD of some elements obviously reduces design costs of said elements, build costs can also be reduced by sharing them among teams. As for wages and personnel costs, there simply isn't any way to control them so why bother.

Total salary caps are successfully applied in a wide range of professional sports including rugby and football (American)

The point isn't to prevent anyone from spending a fortune, it's to reduce the impact of brute financial power and open a window of opportunity for smaller syndicates.

The stated point is "cost reduction in order to make the event economically sustainable". This is your interpretation of what the objective of that should be.

Exactly what the 12mR and ACC rule did. They didn't keep the bigeys from throwing piles of cash at the problem, but they opened the door to smaller outfits who served as first experience for countless sailors, designers and team managers.

Then OD elements and the removal, or partial removal, of the design challenge are not required.

The only reason to support the one design ideas is to preserve the money earning opportunities for the sailors. I appeal to the sailors and decision makers to put aside their personal greed and remember why the America's Cup was such a dream for them. I believe that every single sailor dreamed of sailing in the AC not for the money, but because it was the ultimate challenge, because of the acknowledgement of the history and traditions. To kill those in order to maintain the viability of teams is simply wrong.

Already answered that in part, and there is nothing new about sailors wanting to keep a gravy train alive (just think "grinders"). The best way to bring down wages is to increase competition. The more teams there are the more opportunities there are for talented sailors and designers to show their potential. Go through the crew lists, and design teams, of past ACs and you'll see that big names more often than not entered the world of AC in small syndicates.

 

[High Flow]

Just my opinion: For the average view the whole One Design discussion is of no significance.

We sailors care alot about it and for the real AC fans the design part is a huge part,

but the average viewer is not interested in it at all. Even more so he does not understand the concept.

Imagin you watch a windsurfing contest. Big wave sailing, like the red bull storm chase.

that is very spectacular, cutting edge windsurfing. do you even know if they sail OD, completeley own designs, box rule, ... whatever? Do you even care?

The windsurfing is an extreme example but the AC is going into that direction. We are not talking about boring slow upwind battles. The AC34 was very fast and very spectacular.

In my eyes that's the future and the only future of the cup. If you want to keep it alilve, then go spectacular. big style.

big boats are spectacular, bot small boats can be spectacular too. The AC45's capizing all the time - big show! great stuff! make them 10kns faster and you're nearly there.

Size is not everything - and to the average viewer - OD or not is of no significance what so over.

To get big sponsor money, you need the average joe, not the sailing fanatic.