AC36 CLASS RULE

jorge

Anarchist
733
21
No matter what they do, the rules are going to change the moment they put the first boat on the water, and realize the kind of shit they have done.

 

nav

Super Anarchist
14,015
550
No matter what they do, the rules are going to change the moment they put the first boat on the water, and realize the kind of shit they have done.


 Is there some kind of "naval-architect (and pundits) generational thing" going on?

Which tools do you trust more?

Modeling should be physical or virtual?

How many iterations before committing to the final build?

Which methodology will give the desired result most efficiently?

What say the builders?

The sailors?

View attachment 263131

Who will go for the scow bow?

 
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Kiwing

Super Anarchist
3,298
509
Bay of Islands
^^

That is a very interesting perspective, @nav.  I am  interested on how many of the "experts, me being one" out there who would hold an opinion.

So if the simulation software is very accurate and you the materials live up to the specs.  You can do many years worth of development in a few months.  Try many left field ideas almost at the same time.  This is why design is making such big steps using this virtual method.

If you have to do water tank test and secret river, lake and scaled down boat tests (which produced the foiling 72) then the process is much longer and you are less able to play in left field.

1) will ETNZ produce a scaled down version (or have they secretly already)?

2) what ever the first AC75 trail boat is will it foil out of the box.

My guess is 1) no, 2) yes.  But what would I know? I have never played with this software or .... but watching ETNZ's first cyclor boat gives me absolute confidence.  It foiled out of the box and with some sailor experience foiled a full course very soon.

What do you guys think? Can we have an intelligent conversation/discussion, please.

 

barfy

Super Anarchist
4,741
1,207
Will they be anything like the AC72 Class rules that are due at the same time?
Just chopped the title from the etnz site after I noticed it was up.

I guess they know what to title their documents?

Maybe the length is still up in the air? That happened before 

 

Kiwing

Super Anarchist
3,298
509
Bay of Islands
^^

I know it is a low news time but is virtual verse physical worth discussing?

I guess not many have experienced to virtual as good as the big teams have?

 
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KiwiJoker

Super Anarchist
3,734
324
Auckland, NZ
^^

That is a very interesting perspective, @nav.  I am  interested on how many of the "experts, me being one" out there who would hold an opinion.

So if the simulation software is very accurate and you the materials live up to the specs.  You can do many years worth of development in a few months.  Try many left field ideas almost at the same time.  This is why design is making such big steps using this virtual method.

If you have to do water tank test and secret river, lake and scaled down boat tests (which produced the foiling 72) then the process is much longer and you are less able to play in left field.

1) will ETNZ produce a scaled down version (or have they secretly already)?

2) what ever the first AC75 trail boat is will it foil out of the box.

My guess is 1) no, 2) yes.  But what would I know? I have never played with this software or .... but watching ETNZ's first cyclor boat gives me absolute confidence.  It foiled out of the box and with some sailor experience foiled a full course very soon.

What do you guys think? Can we have an intelligent conversation/discussion, please.
The best "expert" take on the boats for AC36 and whether the rule will work came this month in the American mag Sailing World. Editor Dave Reed interviewed Adolfo Carrau with Botin Partners who are designing for the American challengers Bella Mente Quantum Racing..  Good article.  Little doubt here that the concept will work, based on modelling.  Spotted this somewhere else on SA but here it is again.  

 https://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup-75

And for what it's worth, I agree with your 1) no, 2) yes assessment.

 

RobG

Super Anarchist
2,873
749
Possibly more like the AC75 class rule. Length matters, apparently.
Oh the irony… a poor attempt at pointing out the amateur reporting effort (no reflection on @barfy though).

… but watching ETNZ's first cyclor boat gives me absolute confidence.  It foiled out of the box and with some sailor experience foiled a full course very soon.
Where "right out of the box" was after several year's development with a pretty successful AC72 first. Though I think you're right about the AC75, it will foil if built to the spec (which might be challenging).

The issue is whether it will meet the goals of lower cost and more relevance (to sailors?) compared to an AC50. Opinion seems to be "no", but I guess we'll have to wait and see, not only for the final rules, but for a couple to be built and put through their paces.

It seems a no brainer that there will be drop–in kits to fully automate everything for the purpose of testing and training, that may be the biggest takeaway from the program. Imagine two boat testing where the boats are talking directly to each other to work out optimal settings—the world of AI comes to sailing… They'll likely get more useful information from a single 5 minute reach than a month of manual testing.

 
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Kiwing

Super Anarchist
3,298
509
Bay of Islands
@RobG I guess you are right with "right the out of the box" statement.

Although I think it is more about being able to trust the simulation software rather than bring too much from the AC72.  And actually I was more talking about the wing control. At least 50% of the reason they were able to win IMHO.

I don't care about the "too much $", for me it is the new amazing Tech that does trickle eventually.  Trowing the ball along way ahead, is the most important for me.

 

nav

Super Anarchist
14,015
550
 Is there some kind of "naval-architect (and pundits) generational thing" going on?

Which tools do you trust more?

Modeling should be physical or virtual?

How many iterations before committing to the final build?

Which methodology will give the desired result most efficiently?

What say the builders?

The sailors?

image.png

Who will go for the scow bow?


OK and will the rule allow...

image.png

image.png

Early take off vs crash dives?

 
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barfy

Super Anarchist
4,741
1,207
Oh the irony… a poor attempt at pointing out the amateur reporting effort (no reflection on @barfy though).

Where "right out of the box" was after several year's development with a pretty successful AC72 first. Though I think you're right about the AC75, it will foil if built to the spec (which might be challenging).

The issue is whether it will meet the goals of lower cost and more relevance (to sailors?) compared to an AC50. Opinion seems to be "no", but I guess we'll have to wait and see, not only for the final rules, but for a couple to be built and put through their paces.

It seems a no brainer that there will be drop–in kits to fully automate everything for the purpose of testing and training, that may be the biggest takeaway from the program. Imagine two boat testing where the boats are talking directly to each other to work out optimal settings—the world of AI comes to sailing… They'll likely get more useful information from a single 5 minute reach than a month of manual testing.
The article was perhaps taken out of context, "developing the rule for the AC36" might have been clearer.

I'm not sure lower costs was ever a consideration...I heard "limiting costs" with spec'd components and no wing sails but GD has always been keen for

spectacle spectacle.

Wow, two boat AI driven testing...mind blown at that idea.

 

nav

Super Anarchist
14,015
550
Shame two boat testing is banned* then eh...

*except for ETNZ during the CSS

 
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Forourselves

Super Anarchist
9,830
2,281
New Zealand
^^Correct, as per the protocol:

The Yacht Construction
• The requirement for a yacht to be constructed in the country of its yacht club is a
fundamental principle of the Deed of Gift and this Protocol returns to the rule in previous
America’s Cup cycles requiring the lamination of the hulls of the race boats to be
undertaken in the competitors own country

• All other components including the decks, masts, appendages, fittings are free to be
manufactured anywhere.

• Each competitor is limited to build two yachts.

Launch Dates
• The first boat is not allowed to be launched prior to the 31st March 2019

• The second boat is not allowed to be launched before 1st February 2020

Each competitor is only permitted to sail one boat at a time with the exception being the
Defender which is permitted to sail both boats simultaneously for the duration of The
Challenger Selection Series.


• The Competitors are not allowed to sail with each other except during official regattas or
official practice racing.

 
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