AC36 CLASS RULE

RobG

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So challengers are limited to boat–on–boat testing during official races and practices, and only against other challengers (who may not wish to cooperate), while the NZ team can sail its robot's arse off in two boat testing for the duration of the CSS?

The Shaky Isles' version of a level playing field.

 
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Kiwing

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Bay of Islands
I'm with you @barfly, I would love to be a fly on the wall while simulation software simulated a boat race with slightly different boats (representing different approaches to the problem) raced.  It would not be called two boat testing I don't think.  Two boat testing would have to be two physical boats.

 

rh3000

Super Anarchist
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So challengers are limited to boat–on–boat testing during official races and practices, and only against other challengers (who may not wish to cooperate), while the NZ team can sail its robot's arse off in two boat testing for the duration of the CSS?

The Shaky Isles' version of a level playing field.
I wish I had the energy to find and play you the snippet of when GD addresses this... in short... who are they supposed to optimise against? The other challengers get match fit racing each other, so it's fair enough that ETNZ get a chance to optimise themselves in a two-boat configuration too...

 

Rawhide

Super Anarchist
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Pittwater
• Each competitor is limited to build two yachts.

Launch Dates
• The first boat is not allowed to be launched prior to the 31st March 2019

• The second boat is not allowed to be launched before 1st February 2020

Each competitor is only permitted to sail one boat at a time with the exception being the
Defender which is permitted to sail both boats simultaneously for the duration of The
Challenger Selection Series.


• The Competitors are not allowed to sail with each other except during official regattas or
official practice racing.
So is there anything preventing a non "competitor" building a boat or three and then  trial against a competitor and transfer their IP?

 

RobG

Super Anarchist
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I wish I had the energy to find and play you the snippet of when GD addresses this... in short... who are they supposed to optimise against?
Cry me a river…

NZ are writing the rules, are you telling me they've deliberately dealt themselves a bad hand? They could race with the others until the actual CSS. They could allow two boat testing with the first boat, which apparently will be worth zero once the second boat hits the water—except for NZ.

Everyone will have backup crews, but only NZ can keep both sets of crew training right up to the finals. Only NZ can train against a precise datum and get data from both boats to use in optimisations, the others can never do that. Only NZ can have a robot first boat to train both crews in the second boat against, the others must divide training between crews so backup crew training takes away from main crew training. And they can never sail against each other in AC75s.

Poor bastards NZ.

Whether that's enough to tilt the balance one way or the other is yet to be seen, but it's a very different situation for challengers and defenders that leaves it wide open to criticism. No doubt fuel for the "Team NZ" thread to going for another 4 years after this cycle… ;-)

 

barfy

Super Anarchist
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So challengers are limited to boat–on–boat testing during official races and practices, and only against other challengers (who may not wish to cooperate), while the NZ team can sail its robot's arse off in two boat testing for the duration of the CSS?

The Shaky Isles' version of a level playing field.
time will tell if ETNZ find the resources for 2 x 72ft boats use for such a short period of time.

I would hope they don't recruit another team to train against ala team Jap/OR last cycle.

 

rh3000

Super Anarchist
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Auckland, New Zealand
Cry me a river…

NZ are writing the rules, are you telling me they've deliberately dealt themselves a bad hand? They could race with the others until the actual CSS. They could allow two boat testing with the first boat, which apparently will be worth zero once the second boat hits the water—except for NZ.

Everyone will have backup crews, but only NZ can keep both sets of crew training right up to the finals. Only NZ can train against a precise datum and get data from both boats to use in optimisations, the others can never do that. Only NZ can have a robot first boat to train both crews in the second boat against, the others must divide training between crews so backup crew training takes away from main crew training. And they can never sail against each other in AC75s.

Poor bastards NZ.

Whether that's enough to tilt the balance one way or the other is yet to be seen, but it's a very different situation for challengers and defenders that leaves it wide open to criticism. No doubt fuel for the "Team NZ" thread to going for another 4 years after this cycle… ;-)
Sounds like *you* need to do the crying then mate :)

 

inebriated

Anarchist
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Australia
i do not see how this is any better than oracle saying that only they can build 2 cats

sure, challengers can race their boats among one another, but they will not know what equipment that the other will have, or odds are, any of their data.

same goes for the challenger selection series

this is more of an advantage than last cup's rules about this situation for sure, assuming ETNZ will actually build two boats

alternatively, they could just build one and race it against luna rossa, 

 

rh3000

Super Anarchist
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Auckland, New Zealand
Oracle had a second boat, it was skippered by Dean Barker.

If you think LR are going to do ETNZ any favours then you are sorely mistaken - LR are in this to win it...

 

nav

Super Anarchist
14,029
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um? This rule is nothing new fellas.

It was also included in the Protocol summary, on day 1.

and...

- NZ are writing the rules...

- Grant is Petrizio's bitch!

make up your minds :D

 

Indio

Super Anarchist
10,970
884
Auckland
time will tell if ETNZ find the resources for 2 x 72ft boats use for such a short period of time.

I would hope they don't recruit another team to train against ala team Jap/OR last cycle.
GAshby has stated openly they're actively seeking younger talent wherever they can find them.

The there are these guys...

Youth_AC2017.JPG

 

Stingray~

Super Anarchist
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Oracle had a second boat, it was skippered by Dean Barker.

If you think LR are going to do ETNZ any favours then you are sorely mistaken - LR are in this to win it...
The rule that allows two-boat testing to only the Defender is fair enough, being as it is allowed only during the CSS.

Oracle even offered the same to the Challengers but because the benefit was so small there were no takers, and even Oracle built just one boat.

They did practice a few hours against SBTJ’s boat, a few starts, but it made zero difference.

I’ll be surprised if ETNZ ends up with two boats that are competitive enough by that late stage to meaningfully test between. One will be much faster.

 

rh3000

Super Anarchist
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Auckland, New Zealand
The rule that allows two-boat testing to only the Defender is fair enough, being as it is allowed only during the CSS.

Oracle even offered the same to the Challengers but because the benefit was so small there were no takers, and even Oracle built just one boat.

They did practice a few hours against SBTJ’s boat, a few starts, but it made zero difference.

I’ll be surprised if ETNZ ends up with two boats that are competitive enough by that late stage to meaningfully test between. One will be much faster.
It made plenty of difference, just not enough... which might be the same thing :)

 

inebriated

Anarchist
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Australia
The rule that allows two-boat testing to only the Defender is fair enough, being as it is allowed only during the CSS.

Oracle even offered the same to the Challengers but because the benefit was so small there were no takers, and even Oracle built just one boat.

They did practice a few hours against SBTJ’s boat, a few starts, but it made zero difference.

I’ll be surprised if ETNZ ends up with two boats that are competitive enough by that late stage to meaningfully test between. One will be much faster.
was one of oracles ac72's much faster than the other in ac34?

i think that most of the development will be in internals, not structural components like hulls

i think that the daggerboard position was a little different between the two oracle 72's but not a whole lot in it i didn't think at the time

 

Kiwing

Super Anarchist
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Bay of Islands
Who needs a second boat when the simulator is so accurate.  Practicing starts and crashes are just resets! and try again.

Get the boat out in the water and let the sailors have their input.  Redesign rudders, foils, safety harnesses refine the simulator within cms.

Better and cheaper!!

 

Tornado-Cat

Super Anarchist
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Humm, it's a totally new boat, not sure the simulator is so accurate, and even if so, two real boat racing will always be better.

 

Kiwing

Super Anarchist
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Bay of Islands
Sorry, I believe the simulator will be very good especially after it has been tuned from the real boat.

You can crash many times trying crazy things in the Simulator.

And the cost savings!!  Then the real boat can be given to the sailors to push to their limits and try their left field ideas.

I'll put the shirt of my back that there will be only one boat for ETNZ!

 

animeproblem

Super Anarchist
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214
Seattle
Have to confess, this thread has opened my eyes, I was very much in the camp of "this whole concept is a disaster" shameful that I would neglect just how far computer simulations & dynamic modeling have come, hell, CRAY Research have an office right here in town, in some ways this cycle will highlight sailing skills all the more, & I find myself more stoked than ever to see the rule release, though I will be at an anime convention on that day.

 
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