AC40

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Mozzy Sails said:
Oy, knobhead, stop posting stuff on the internet that is WRONG!

So... after further reading, I now believe that
1) The definition of LEQ12 includes AC40s
2) There is no rule that limits the amount of LEQ12s you can have (only that limits components)
3) Components only count to the quota if they are mounted on LEQ12 hull which isn't AC40 class legal.
4) A hull is the main body of the yacht, including the bottom, sides, transom, deck, cockpit and internal structure but not the mast, rigging, sails, appendages or fittings

So, you can have as many AC40s as you want, because they're LEQ12s and there is no limit to the number of LEQ12s you can have.

There is a limit to the number LEQ12 components you can have, but the teams don't have to worry about AC40 class legal part on AC40 class legal hulls as they are exempt from the quota.




So I think ETNZ can mount their banana foil and new wheel on their second AC40. The wheel isn't an LEQ12 component which number is limited, and the banana foil has already been taken from their quota. Their first AC$) hull surface hasn't counted against their quota as it was mounted on (part of?) a class legal AC40) hull.

Bit confusing, but I think it now makes sense.


That means INEOS / LRPP can mount lots of their LEQ12 equipment on their AC40 when they arrive. But, if they put an AC40 part on to their LEQ12 (mast, wing, rudder, sails) it will count to their LEQ12 quota.

The upshot of all of this is INEOS and LRPP have less interchangeability between their LEQs (test boat and AC40) than ETNZ does between two AC40s, even if one has been testing none class legal components, so long as the hulls themselves remain class legal.
Click to expand...
and after all of that, a towing mast invented by the rule maker Team New Catalonia isn't legal...

Just hurry up an lose TNC!
 
shebeen

shebeen

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Mozzy Sails said:
Oy, knobhead, stop posting stuff on the internet that is WRONG!

So... after further reading, I now believe that
1) The definition of LEQ12 includes AC40s
2) There is no rule that limits the amount of LEQ12s you can have (only that limits components)
3) Components only count to the quota if they are mounted on LEQ12 hull which isn't AC40 class legal.
4) A hull is the main body of the yacht, including the bottom, sides, transom, deck, cockpit and internal structure but not the mast, rigging, sails, appendages or fittings

So, you can have as many AC40s as you want, because they're LEQ12s and there is no limit to the number of LEQ12s you can have.

There is a limit to the number LEQ12 components you can have, but the teams don't have to worry about AC40 class legal part on AC40 class legal hulls as they are exempt from the quota.




So I think ETNZ can mount their banana foil and new wheel on their second AC40. The wheel isn't an LEQ12 component which number is limited, and the banana foil has already been taken from their quota. Their first AC$) hull surface hasn't counted against their quota as it was mounted on (part of?) a class legal AC40) hull.

Bit confusing, but I think it now makes sense.


That means INEOS / LRPP can mount lots of their LEQ12 equipment on their AC40 when they arrive. But, if they put an AC40 part on to their LEQ12 (mast, wing, rudder, sails) it will count to their LEQ12 quota.

The upshot of all of this is INEOS and LRPP have less interchangeability between their LEQs (test boat and AC40) than ETNZ does between two AC40s, even if one has been testing none class legal components, so long as the hulls themselves remain class legal.
Click to expand...
yes that is confusing, seems par for the course!

Do we know if INEOS/LRPP designed their LEQ12 around the AC40 parts/dimensions? ie. will their foils fit into the AC40 hull without major modifcations?
 
D

dogwatch

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accnick said:
That was what it was originally, before what is now World Sailing basically claimed licensing ownership of the title "international" with regard to sailboat classes. The "I" was dropped from the ACC rule title after the 1992 AC, if I recall correctly.
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Interesting, I didn't know that. Every single modern reference I can find has "IACC" including various Wikipedia pages but yes the official documents for AC32 say ACC. I can't readily put my hands on documents for earlier cycles.
 
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shanghaisailor

shanghaisailor

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@ Smackdaddy - Mark your words??? those would be the same sort of words where with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever you suggested that McConaghy Yachts had - and to quote you "cheap labour practices". Obviously you have never visited their factory.

You don't produce something like this with "cheap labour practices"

article-0-1A448469000005DC-386_964x368.jpg
 
smackdaddy

smackdaddy

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shanghaisailor said:
@ Smackdaddy - Mark your words??? those would be the same sort of words where with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever you suggested that McConaghy Yachts had - and to quote you "cheap labour practices". Obviously you have never visited their factory.

You don't produce something like this with "cheap labour practices"

View attachment 558089
Click to expand...

Yes - mark my words. It doesn’t matter who McDonalds Yachts are. And visiting their fry line matters even less.

This boat has no future beyond this AC because it’s a ridiculous design for its intended purpose.

You‘re a writer - so here is a little exercise…put together the demographic that is going to want to pay $2M for this thing to race it in an new OD class - only on autopilot because otherwise it‘s uncontrollable and crashes and breaks apart (maybe start with TP52 owners who aren’t very smart). Now run through the logistics that will be required by the owner to race it (2x highly-trained crew because no one in the boat can move, maintenance on very complex systems, transportation, etc). Now cost that out for each season. And finally, figure in the fact that these boats crash very easily and cannot right themselves. Therefore, who cleans up all that carnage in a race? The committee with 10 hydrogen chase boats purchased from Krusty? Or does every owner also need a dedicated chase boat (and team)? Oh, and who bears the liability from the inevitable body lopping that will happen with the hanging cleaver - a danger that’s clearly evident to all, hence increasing that level of liability?

Now, with the math above, how big is the market for this AC40 beyond the Squid Game in Barcelona? Are you really seeing a bright future here?

PS - On the labor practices - so you are saying for the record that all the labor in the McDonalds Yachts factory are making wages equivalent to the majority of the “western world”?
 
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shanghaisailor

shanghaisailor

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smackdaddy said:
Yes - mark my words. It doesn’t matter who McDonalds Yachts are. And visiting their fry line matters even less.

This boat has no future beyond this AC because it’s a ridiculous design for its intended purpose.

You‘re a writer - so here is a little exercise…put together the demographic that is going to want to pay $2M for this thing to race it in an new OD class - only on autopilot because otherwise it breaks apart (maybe start with TP52 owners who aren’t very smart). Now run through the logistics that will be required by the owner to race it (2x highly-trained crew because no one in the boat can move, maintenance on very complex systems, transportation, etc). Now cost that out for each season. And finally, figure in the fact that these boats crash very easily and cannot right themselves. Therefore, who cleans up all that carnage in a race? The committee with 10 hydrogen chase boats? Or does every owner also need a dedicated chase boat (and team)? Oh, and who bears the liability from the inevitable body lopping that will happen with the hanging cleaver - a danger that’s clearly evident to all, hence increasing that level of liability?

Now, with the math above, how big is the market for this AC40 beyond the Squid Game in Barcelona?
Click to expand...
You miss the point that was responding to your comment about cheap labour. If you had actually employed anyone here you would know that good employees are NOT cheap.

I actually agree with you on the very limited market for these boats outside the AC in the same way the top Ferrari that can only be used on a race track and looked after by Ferrari themselves didn't sell hundreds. Of course the current position of the global economic cycle wont help either.

It wouldn't be the first racing class that was announced to great fanfare only to die very quickly but who knows, there may be enough adrenalin junkies who want to spend that sort of money on purchase and running. There are so many products in the past which had high hopes and then withered on the vine but there are also those where the opposite was true

It hardly crashes very easily as it has been pushed hard by pro sailors since it arrived in New Zealand and this 'crash' was when it was apparently OFF auto-pilot.

Your comment about it being unable to right itself as if this was a unique feature made me chuckle. Most cats and tris over 30 feet cannot self recover as the recent Route du Rhum has proven.

Every boat having a dedicated chase boat? That has been the case for over a decade with SailGP teams and the eXtreme Sailing Series before it where every boat has/had its own RIB to recover the boat in the event of a capsize and at least one Hobie class had a bulbous buoyancy at the masthead to prevent a total (non-self recovering) inversion

Your pop at McConaghy by calling them McDonalds is so transparent, (and laughable) as an American would you have done the same to the likes of Hinckley - doubtful.

However I do think you are right that is is unlikely there will be a queue with cheque-books in hand beyond AC37 in Barcelona but who knows, with the world having more billionaires than ever before (it might surprise you to know China now has more than the USA according to Forbes) there may be enough who want one, I am no more of a crystal ball owner than your good self.

I also agree with the dangers posed by a sharp foil as sadly evidenced by the likes of Franck Cammas' accident a few years back, and having seen one being assembled in McConaghy I can vouch they are sharp - safety protocols would have to be comprehensive and properly policed.

Interesting discussion though

Stay well

SS
 
smackdaddy

smackdaddy

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Well good. So notwithstanding a few flourishes of witty prose, it seems we agree on most everything.

shanghaisailor said:
You miss the point that was responding to your comment about cheap labour. If you had actually employed anyone here you would know that good employees are NOT cheap.
Click to expand...

There sure are a lot of qualifiers in that sentence. So back to my question above, are you saying for the record that all the laborers in the McDonalds Yachts factory are making wages equivalent to the majority of the “western world”?

shanghaisailor said:
It hardly crashes very easily as it has been pushed hard by pro sailors since it arrived in New Zealand and this 'crash' was when it was apparently OFF auto-pilot.
Click to expand...

Your own example undermines your argument. What were the conditions according Krusty himself for this crash? Certainly nothing extraordinary. Yet the “pro sailors” you refer to still couldn’t control the boat OFF auto-pilot. And this is hardly the first time.

If “pro sailors” can’t stably sail the AC40 in manual mode, why the hell does Krusty think women, children, and rich schmos can?

shanghaisailor said:
Your comment about it being unable to right itself as if this was a unique feature made me chuckle. Most cats and tris over 30 feet cannot self recover as the recent Route du Rhum has proven.

Every boat having a dedicated chase boat? That has been the case for over a decade with SailGP teams and the eXtreme Sailing Series before it where every boat has/had its own RIB to recover the boat in the event of a capsize and at least one Hobie class had a bulbous buoyancy at the masthead to prevent a total (non-self recovering) inversion
Click to expand...

I’ve got a mast float for our beach cat. But just as that has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about regarding the AC40 being sailed on a relatively tight course with a lot of other AC40s in close proximity, most of your examples don’t either.

SailGP controls the boats and the course. On top of that, the F50 capsize rate is FAR less than what we’ve seen thus far with the AC40. The multis are just inherently a more stable platform.

So they are going to sell these 3-legged, drunken flightless birds to private individuals, litter a race course with them on their sides, then throw a fleet of team recovery RIBS into that mix? I will say that is a trainwreck that will be fun to watch. I certainly have never seen anything like it - except for The Squid Game.

shanghaisailor said:
Your pop at McConaghy by calling them McDonalds is so transparent, (and laughable) as an American would you have done the same to the likes of Hinckley - doubtful.
Click to expand...

It’s a joke dude. Are the fronts falling off Hinckleys too?

shanghaisailor said:
I also agree with the dangers posed by a sharp foil as sadly evidenced by the likes of Franck Cammas' accident a few years back, and having seen one being assembled in McConaghy I can vouch they are sharp - safety protocols would have to be comprehensive and properly policed.
Click to expand...

This is really where the cleaver meets the bone as it were. That Cammas incident is a perfect example of the very real - AND OBVIOUS - danger with this AC40. Then, even more to the point of the unique hazard posed here, you have the Spindrift2 incident, etc. Wasn’t there jail time on that one?

In any case, I’ll be very interested to see what those safety protocols are and how they are policed. Otherwise, back to the specter above of one of these things on autopilot slicing through a field of women and children on capsized AC40s and team chase RIBS. That will not be pretty.
 
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