smackdaddy
Super Anarchist
Jealousy? Heh. That’s an interesting take on things.
AC40
- Thread starter Varan
- Start date
enigmatically2
Super Anarchist
The foil shapes, systems and tech we can see, lots.
Without imagining that we can judge small % of differences in speed when we can't see the wind angles they are sailing at, or know whether they are testing speed, or collecting data on drag during turns, or ability to re-mode to high angles, or many many other factors.
smackdaddy
Super Anarchist
I agree with your first sentence. But you’re wrong on the second sentence. We have plenty of video showing this boat being run on AP as confirmed by the sailors. Very stable. And we have seen a couple of videos of the boat NOT on AP, again as confirmed by the sailors. Not very stable.
Judging by these past videos and the behavior of these two boats in this video, I think one can pretty easily surmise the on/off.
But, let’s say you want to keep running down this rabbit hole…if both boats are in the same mode, either one AP completely sucks if AP is on for both, or one boat configuration completely blows if AP is off for both, or one of the crews can’t sail worth a damn, AP or no.
So which is it?
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It can be any of the things you mentioned, and perhaps also some others that you didn't.
That's the point.
The boats are in a testing and data collection phase. Anomalies and even failures should be expected.
Trying to read significant absolutes into what is being seen is pointless because we do not have all of the information to make such an assessment.
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Kiwing
Super Anarchist
Ah, but it is the speculation which is the fun?
Without knowing what they are testing or what the differences are between the boats, it is impossible to say that either one AP sucks or doesn't, is off or on (you may think you know, but you in fact do not), etc... The same AP code with different foils could behave very differently based on the lift, angle, drag, etc. It may look unstable to you (I believe this is your "one boat configuration completely blows" case) but we don't have the numbers to back it up. It might be unstable, same speed, but better angle. You'd never be able to judge that unless you have the telemetry, which we don't, especially considering the videos are edited in a way to catch non-sailors interest.
I don't disagree, but speculation invites the use of words such as maybe, might, could, possibly, etc, etc, as well as a tone of discussion and curiosity.
Not broad statements by some that significant absolutes have already been determined - from watching a few videos...
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Kiwing
Super Anarchist
But those broad statements only make the issuer look foolish in due course? IMHO that is.
Sailbydate
Super Anarchist
These two boat sessions are more about sailing training, at this stage. Overthinking much?
smackdaddy
Super Anarchist
So you are tying to tell me that no one here can possibly understand what’s happening in these videos unless we have the actual telemetry? Really?
For example, we can’t possibly know that a boat has capsized and had its bow fall off due to poor design, until ETNZ confirm it with interviews and full data?
Or, though the collective understanding is that in foiling, all other things being equal, ride height and flight time are two of the most critical factors in winning or losing - yet without telemetry we can’t know that one of these boats was low and porpoising enough to repeatedly push its nose into the water like a drunken donkey, while the other was rock solid, high and fast - gaining on said whacked ass that started with a major lead?
And now it’s the video editing that’s the problem? Do you have telemetry on that?
Any other attempts at spin?
Good lord, man. Now do you see why I keep posting about the obvious? This place needs me like the desert needs the rain.
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Of course it's possible to see WHAT is happening in a video.
But it is not necessarily possible to see WHY it is happening.
That is the key point that you are missing.
And the fact that this is a testing phase, so it is possible to see a lot of aspects that may not be optimal.
It's not that difficult to understand.
This isn't spin by some of us, this is just push back at you suggesting that you know everything, when it's very easy and clear to see that you are (purposely?) not taking all the relevant factors into account.
But it is not necessarily possible to see WHY it is happening.
That is the key point that you are missing.
And the fact that this is a testing phase, so it is possible to see a lot of aspects that may not be optimal.
It's not that difficult to understand.
This isn't spin by some of us, this is just push back at you suggesting that you know everything, when it's very easy and clear to see that you are (purposely?) not taking all the relevant factors into account.
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JALhazmat
Super Anarchist
You are fighting a Losing battle using logic and facts vs how many seagulls flew by in a frame of video shot on a potato at an indeterminate distance.
smackdaddy
Super Anarchist
Oh, there’s no reason for push back on that. My record of being right speaks for itself...and will continue to do so. Just wait.
(Of anyone, you should appreciate that fact.)
Also, a point on telemetry.
I ALWAYS like to see telemetry when I'm watching high performance boats / racing. Whether that be AC, SailGP, whatever.
(eg: when watching the AC racing I even had 2 screens side by side - one with the live video, and the other with the virtual eye/telemetry)
Because I like to understand WHY something is happening, as if I was onboard, mentally processing the data, because that is what I am used to doing.
Does a boat appear faster (in this moment) because:
- they have more windspeed?
- they are sailing a different angle?
- they are in a shift?
- are really faster, in terms of VMG?
- etc, etc
Not all of that is always visible only from the video playback, especially now with these very fast boats. It's not like the old days of watching helicopter footage of the AC 12metres where you could pick most of that by eye.
Most performance orientated sailors understand these factors.
I ALWAYS like to see telemetry when I'm watching high performance boats / racing. Whether that be AC, SailGP, whatever.
(eg: when watching the AC racing I even had 2 screens side by side - one with the live video, and the other with the virtual eye/telemetry)
Because I like to understand WHY something is happening, as if I was onboard, mentally processing the data, because that is what I am used to doing.
Does a boat appear faster (in this moment) because:
- they have more windspeed?
- they are sailing a different angle?
- they are in a shift?
- are really faster, in terms of VMG?
- etc, etc
Not all of that is always visible only from the video playback, especially now with these very fast boats. It's not like the old days of watching helicopter footage of the AC 12metres where you could pick most of that by eye.
Most performance orientated sailors understand these factors.
Mozzy Sails
Super Anarchist
The one to leeward is the LEQ12. It's got the dayglo bits of tape on the stern mast and the bowsprit.
I think it runs a little lower in the water, but seemed faster for it... but very hard to tell with such a long zoom lens, and it looks very gusty.
So I honestly couldn't tell if one was on AP, or one was much faster... it was a genuine question.
It looks like they are testing the new foil. When they are on starboard tack, the new foil is active. It looked like the mast rake may have been different too. The Ineos boat looked to have less aft rake as well. Could be camera angles, but i thought the last shot of the boats on starboard showed a little more aft rake on the LEQ. Also they seemed to be ripping along even better than the stock 40 in that closing shot.
i didnt see any 2nd rate sailing/shakey ride heights going on, and both boats were cranking through the jibes and tacks. They have a strong team getting stronger with the 2 boat testing.
Personally, I like the teams that are sailing the full sized boats. Sad to hear they are decommissioning American Magic. They should sail the heck out of that old girl till they have a better full sized one in the water. That was the fastest boat in a breeze of the last Americas Cup. The 40s are a distraction for the teams that are already on the full sized model imo.
i didnt see any 2nd rate sailing/shakey ride heights going on, and both boats were cranking through the jibes and tacks. They have a strong team getting stronger with the 2 boat testing.
Personally, I like the teams that are sailing the full sized boats. Sad to hear they are decommissioning American Magic. They should sail the heck out of that old girl till they have a better full sized one in the water. That was the fastest boat in a breeze of the last Americas Cup. The 40s are a distraction for the teams that are already on the full sized model imo.
And who is to know if, for example, the instruction from the chase boat was: "you guys sail low on the foils and test abc, and you other guys sail high on the foils and test xyz"
Just because it appears to be '2 boat testing' doesn't mean both boats are configured the same and/or are testing the same aspects, or are even testing against each other, even though to viewers they are sailing together and so naturally we want to take an inference from that - even though that may not be correct at all.
In fact in general we know that the opposite is true for some of those factors, at least at the moment.
There is so much that we simply do not know that it is impossible to determine significant absolutes just from looking at a quick video like this.
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breezie
Member
"ETNZ clearly doesn’t care about crew safety"
In this context this is actionable slander . If you dont want to believe me we could ask the opinion of the ETNZ legal team!
You will do as you see fit. I would remove the whole set of posts from smakkie on this subject now that the matter has been brought to your attention.
safety is important and is a proper subject for discussion here in which i would participate. such discourse is not possible while smakkie is shitting all over it!
