Aegean lawsuit

[estarzinger]

I don't think there is any objective argument about the primary fault for the incident. We all know and agree where that should be placed.

The debate would be around (1) whether SPOT's marketing is misleading, and/or (2) GEOS's response was inadequate (given the marketing). Those are entirely different questions than 'fault' for the incident. We do hold companies responsible for misleading advertising. I personally believe the boating consumer is being mis-lead/mis-informed about how effective these devices are for SAR, and that it would benefit all of us for that to be corrected. And in our society a (threat of) lawsuit may be the only way to correct it. The USCG has tried to explain why Epirbs are much more effective, but their communication is drowned out by the SPOT and Inreach marketing.

 

[some dude]

I don't think there is any objective argument about the primary fault for the incident. We all know and agree where that should be placed.

The debate would be around (1) whether SPOT's marketing is misleading, and/or (2) GEOS's response was inadequate (given the marketing). Those are entirely different questions than 'fault' for the incident. We do hold companies responsible for misleading advertising. I personally believe the boating consumer is being mis-lead/mis-informed about how effective these devices are for SAR, and that it would benefit all of us for that to be corrected. And in our society a (threat of) lawsuit may be the only way to correct it. The USCG has tried to explain why Epirbs are much more effective, but their communication is drowned out by the SPOT and Inreach marketing.

Yes that will be plaintiff's main argument, but causation will be problematic, as well as a huge comparative negligence component

 

[Great Red Shark]

Estar, you make an interesting point. Perhaps the private tracker device industry does oversell it's benefits (when has THAT ever happened before?) - but this sure doesn't sound like anything more than a payday to me. Is that is the only tool in the drawer to adjust corporate behavior ?

some dude, I'll chalk your callous reference down to internet insulation, because the loss of four sailors to an ACCIDENT is really no place for you to get on your high horse of evolutionary superiority - unless you'd like it when the same is said of your loss. Likely three of them were just asleep and waiting the change of watch - you really want to call'em stupid monkeys ?

That the guy on watch had a really long day and dozed off at the wrong time, and an autopilot set to a heading too close to the island and a bit of current/cross track error all coincided to take four lives isn't any 'mental' defect, it was just a tragic chain of events because people do make honest mistakes.

Like not double-checking a universal mast base.

 

[silent bob]

So a widow can sue GM when her drunk husband crashes the car into a lamppost and it's OnStar's fault?

 

[some dude]

Estar, you make an interesting point. Perhaps the private tracker device industry does oversell it's benefits (when has THAT ever happened before?) - but this sure doesn't sound like anything more than a payday to me. Is that is the only tool in the drawer to adjust corporate behavior ?

some dude, I'll chalk your callous reference down to internet insulation, because the loss of four sailors to an ACCIDENT is really no place for you to get on your high horse of evolutionary superiority - unless you'd like it when the same is said of your loss. Likely three of them were just asleep and waiting the change of watch - you really want to call'em stupid monkeys ?

That the guy on watch had a really long day and dozed off at the wrong time, and an autopilot set to a heading too close to the island and a bit of current/cross track error all coincided to take four lives isn't any 'mental' defect, it was just a tragic chain of events because people do make honest mistakes.

Like not double-checking a universal mast base.

Didn't call them stupid or monkeys. Go back and re-read carefully

They were killed by their own negligence. A hard fact for their families to accept, I'd imagine, but true nonetheless.

 

[Great Red Shark]

Didn't call them stupid or monkeys. Go back and re-read carefully

They were killed by their own negligence.

So who did the 'fancy electronics' refer to ? Actual monkeys ?
And just to be clear - we don't really know EXACTLY what happened that night, so I wouldn't be so quickwith the negligence label. They all paid the price for in the end, not keeping an adequate watch - (we think) - which could mean just one guy fell asleep when he shouldn't have, and we will probably never know who.

 

[some dude]

Didn't call them stupid or monkeys. Go back and re-read carefully

They were killed by their own negligence.

So who did the 'fancy electronics' refer to ? Actual monkeys ?
And just to be clear - we don't really know EXACTLY what happened that night, so I wouldn't be so quickwith the negligence label. They all paid the price for in the end, not keeping an adequate watch - (we think) - which could mean just one guy fell asleep when he shouldn't have, and we will probably never know who.

And some guy set the autopilot to go to a waypoint directly on the other side of an island. A tragic accident due to someone's negligence. Whose? I agree that we'll likely never know for sure, except that whoever it was, was on the boat that night. We can't know for sure what happened but based on the results we can infer negligence because this kind of thing doesn't happen in the absence of negligence. The legal doctrine is known as Res Ipsa Loquitur. Look it up.

 

[Great Red Shark]

I'm not speaking about the Legal aspect, just the decent manner that we ought to have toward the victims.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

After looking at the FP article I had a quick bit to add. It's no secret that the recent Everglades Challenge, run by Watertribe requires a Spot tracker. However it isn't for the SOS/help button to save our soggy asses. No, it's so the folks at home can follow along and know what is going on. Sure the rules state how to use the "Help" function but that is just so race HQ knows something is up and they can monitor the situation. The PLB requirement is to assist in saving our soggy asses, as is the handheld submersible VHF, flares, signal mirror, and all the other stuff we have to carry. This year several boats hit the "help" button and race HQ picked it up right away. Then they start trying to get info. Are there cell phones on that boat? Are they in coverage? Where is their shore contact? Calls are made minutes after the "Help" is pushed. The calls don't always produce immediate results but the situation is monitored. I was involved in one of these situations during this years race. We had answers within 15 minutes and made all calls needed. No one in Watertribe relies on the Spot as a fail safe. It is one of many tools we carry to try and be safer. No one else should rely on it either. A hockey puck sized transmitter sending signals to a for profit company is just 1 way to get the word out, just 1. Personal responsibility!

 

[some dude]

I'm not speaking about the Legal aspect, just the decent manner that we ought to have toward the victims.

Gotcha. I'm just speaking about the legal aspect I'm sure their loss is very hard on the families, but that doesn't mean it's someone else's fault.

 

[K38BOB]

I don't think there is any objective argument about the primary fault for the incident. We all know and agree where that should be placed.

The debate would be around (1) whether SPOT's marketing is misleading, and/or (2) GEOS's response was inadequate (given the marketing). Those are entirely different questions than 'fault' for the incident. We do hold companies responsible for misleading advertising. I personally believe the boating consumer is being mis-lead/mis-informed about how effective these devices are for SAR, and that it would benefit all of us for that to be corrected. And in our society a (threat of) lawsuit may be the only way to correct it. The USCG has tried to explain why Epirbs are much more effective, but their communication is drowned out by the SPOT and Inreach marketing.

We had an incident where the racer spot track stopped mid race in the ocean. It was noticed and caused some excitement. 2 days later spot sent an email mentioned the outage. The track on this spot then showed only the track after the outage. Prior to the outage was gone.

The CG's very good and a friend fortunate in this incident- but the GPIRB was 3 hrs response- 80 degree core temp

GPIRB is best offshore.
Coastal we like VHF-DSC-GPS and appreciate the test we did with our CG http://vimeo.com/89669435

 

[estarzinger]

^^ agreed dsc good, when and where you are in range.

In the Aegean case we do not know for sure but we suspect the rig came down almost immediately bringing down the dsc antenna with it. And it then sunk way too fast to deploy an emergency antenna, if they had one.

Regarding the sailors aboard . . . I wrote this as the introduction page for a presentation I made on three recent sailing fatality incidents . . .

" The answer is NOT that they were stupid or inexperienced;

The question IS how intelligent and experience sailors made such mistakes

and how we can be more sure to avoid making them ourselves"

 

[K38BOB]

^^ agreed dsc good, when and where you are in range.

In the Aegean case we do not know for sure but we suspect the rig came down almost immediately bringing down the dsc antenna with it. And it then sunk way too fast to deploy an emergency antenna, if they had one.

Regarding the sailors aboard . . . I wrote this as the introduction page for a presentation I made on three recent sailing fatality incidents . . .

" The answer is NOT that they were stupid or inexperienced;

The question IS how intelligent and experience sailors made such mistakes

and how we can be more sure to avoid making them ourselves"

We also have handheld DSC-GPS-VHF requirements w registered MMSI for dismasting, capsize, COB, redundancy.. http://tinyurl.com/DHF-DSC-test

Heat wave rescue was simple handheld VHF with visual bearings/sightings (at night) http://www.sfbama.org/fs/index.html

 

[Rasputin22]

After looking at the FP article I had a quick bit to add. It's no secret that the recent Everglades Challenge, run by Watertribe requires a Spot tracker. However it isn't for the SOS/help button to save our soggy asses. No, it's so the folks at home can follow along and know what is going on.

Here is a good example of what SPOT is really mean't for. Lots of big rocks directly in this guys way.

https://share.delorme.com/GordonBoettger

The soaring community is taking interest in the AEGEAN suite too.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/eY5a7wP67wc

 

[Somebody Else]

I can't stand this. Here's how I see it in my humble opinion - My husband moronically drove his boat right into the side of an island. On board he had modern navigation equipment, he had the ability to read charts and see that this Island was there and that he was heading straight for it. He had decades of experience. He hit the panic button on the SPOT, the way he set the SPOT up was when the Panic button was hit, the responders were to call his/my house. But you know, it was in the middle of the night when my phone rang, I didn't bother to get it. So I let the opportunity pass to get involved in tracking down his whereabouts. But due to his own ineptitude, not only did he drive the boat right into the island, destroying the boat completely, he took 4 soles with it.

It must be somebody else's fault.

Go ahead. Blame me.

I've got broad shoulders.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

If SPOT really did get an SOS and decide f-it, we'll see what the issue is in the morning then I hope they do get their asses sued right off.

Not to say setting an autopilot course through an island is a good idea or anything, but do NOT put an SOS button on something and then have it be the "when we feel like it" button. As for OnStar, if I get drunk and hit a tree and manage to hit the HELP button, I kind of do expect them to actually send help that day. I did whack the help button in a rental car by accident and the voice asking me if I was OK scared the crap out of me

 

[frostbit]

If SPOT really did get an SOS and decide f-it, we'll see what the issue is in the morning then I hope they do get their asses sued right off.

Not to say setting an autopilot course through an island is a good idea or anything, but do NOT put an SOS button on something and then have it be the "when we feel like it" button. As for OnStar, if I get drunk and hit a tree and manage to hit the HELP button, I kind of do expect them to actually send help that day. I did whack the help button in a rental car by accident and the voice asking me if I was OK scared the crap out of me

+1. If there is no intent to actually follow up on an SOS, then don't put the button on the device or pretend it is part of your service. It is dishonest at best. Not that it excuses other causes of this tragedy or that all motives in the lawsuit are guaranteed pure, but if the, "we'll even save your ass when you're in trouble," sales pitch is complete BS, then that pitch needs to change immediately.

 

[Christian]

I don't think there is any objective argument about the primary fault for the incident. We all know and agree where that should be placed.

The debate would be around (1) whether SPOT's marketing is misleading, and/or (2) GEOS's response was inadequate (given the marketing). Those are entirely different questions than 'fault' for the incident. We do hold companies responsible for misleading advertising. I personally believe the boating consumer is being mis-lead/mis-informed about how effective these devices are for SAR, and that it would benefit all of us for that to be corrected. And in our society a (threat of) lawsuit may be the only way to correct it. The USCG has tried to explain why Epirbs are much more effective, but their communication is drowned out by the SPOT and Inreach marketing.

Agree that the SPOT activation (even with quick COSPAS/SARSAt response) would probably not have changed the outcome one bit.

BUT

I have been waiting for a lawsuit to happen against SPOT as they do promote the emergency feature even though the network behind the feature is farr from robust and anyone relying on a SPOT as an emergency beacon are close to SOL.

It is unfortunate that a company (SPOT in this case) markets a product beyond its capabilities and maybe something good will come out of the lawsuit (although it seems like the motivation for the lawsuit is probably money rather than getting SPOT to stop overstating its capabilities) so SPOT dials down the rhetoric a bit.

I do find it wrong that anybody would market and sell anything with false claims in the safety category. And that also goes to retailers selling this kind of junk. I remember a conversation with the (at the time) product head for West Marine about WM marine selling questionable safety equipment such as SPOT (with the safety claims) , fanny pack PFD's and the like where it was clear that WM did not care if the crap they are selling is any good or not - and this person is active in USS safety at sea - go figure...............

 

[sunseeker]

Fuck Worst Marine. Fuck Spot. Fuck US Sailing. Sue them all into oblivion.

 

[estarzinger]

We also have handheld DSC-GPS-VHF requirements w registered MMSI for dismasting, capsize, COB, redundancy..

Also a good idea . . . But there are range and battery issues with handhelds.
Aegeon was out of handheld range for the USCG, and probably the Mexicans. They would most probably have been in range of some racing boats, if those boats had their radios on and could hear them in the cockpit. There was a commercial ship around, but I can't remember if it was within handheld range or not - I think not but am not sure.

Whenever I go to use my handheld I find the batteries dead. I fully admit this is just sloppiness on my part, but safety practice needs to acknowledge that humans are by nature sloppy.

DSC is great "in theory", but a bit lacking in practice . . . Starting with the fact that +90% of dsc installations (in the USA) do not have either an MMSI or a GPS connection. And very few people who gave a proper installation have made or heard a (test) dsc mayday. The number of actual dsc maydays the uscg responds to is very very small (like single digits).

Re the lawsuit . . . The "interesting" question is if you advertise an SOS/911 capability, what sort of response must you be able to provide. I would think it should be essentially identical to the public capabilities (epirb and 911) in terms of all the important metrics, as these terms have been defined by their public implementations.