Alcohol vs gasoline

Meat Wad

Meat Wad

Super Anarchist
3,045
781
So Cal, the SB Channel
So I get the spam email about Rockfeller and how he killed an alternative fuel. Of course there was a link (no I did not click it).

I did a search (duck duck go) and found some stuff I did not know. I'm not sure why this was not discussed in the History series "The Titans that built America"

I wonder what the carbon output is of a vehicle on alcohol is?

here are a few excerpts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rockefeller, Ford and the Secret History of Alcohol


There's a secret history regarding alcohol that you won't hear on the six o'clock news:
  • Cars and everything else running on internal combustion engines can run on alcohol at least as well as they can run on gasoline. Indeed, engines were built back in 1870 that could run using either alcohol or gasoline

  • A New York Times article from 1908 enthusiastically states:



"Autoists Discuss Alcohol As Fuel; Great Future Ahead For Use In Commercial Wagons, Says Prof. Lucke. Tests With Motor Truck E.R. Hewitt Tells Engineers Of His Results With Gasoline And Alcohol In Same Engine"



  • Henry Ford said that alcohol was "a cleaner, nicer, better fuel for automobiles than gasoline" (James Brough, The Ford Dynasty: An American Story, p. 118, and cited in "Ford - The Men and the Machine", p. 365). The Model T Ford had a knob right on the dashboard to adjust the fuel-air mixture for either alcohol or gas

  • Alcohol does not corrode or shorten the lifespan of modern cars, and an inexpensive adjustment to regular cars will make them run smoothly and inexpensively on alcohol

So if alcohol can provide a cheaper and better fuel than alcohol, why doesn't anyone talk about it today?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember in the late 70's NHRA using Alcohol and of course ethanol blends for cars. But I was never aware that it was a big deal at the turn of the century.

Imagine how many local/regional distilleries would pop up to fill you tank at.

 
L

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
7,013
1,296
San Diego
Fake news. IIRC the racers used alky because of very hi compression engines, needed to prevent knocking. Alky does NOT have the same energy as gas. You can make an engine to run on almost anything - but efficiency can suffer. Energy density is still a major factor.

 
billy backstay

billy backstay

Backstay, never bought a suit, never went to Vegas
32,117
2,696
Long River meets the Sound....
Meat Wad said:
So I get the spam email about Rockfeller and how he killed an alternative fuel. Of course there was a link (no I did not click it).

I did a search (duck duck go) and found some stuff I did not know. I'm not sure why this was not discussed in the History series "The Titans that built America"

I wonder what the carbon output is of a vehicle on alcohol is?

here are a few excerpts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rockefeller, Ford and the Secret History of Alcohol


There's a secret history regarding alcohol that you won't hear on the six o'clock news:
  • Cars and everything else running on internal combustion engines can run on alcohol at least as well as they can run on gasoline. Indeed, engines were built back in 1870 that could run using either alcohol or gasoline

  • A New York Times article from 1908 enthusiastically states:



"Autoists Discuss Alcohol As Fuel; Great Future Ahead For Use In Commercial Wagons, Says Prof. Lucke. Tests With Motor Truck E.R. Hewitt Tells Engineers Of His Results With Gasoline And Alcohol In Same Engine"



  • Henry Ford said that alcohol was "a cleaner, nicer, better fuel for automobiles than gasoline" (James Brough, The Ford Dynasty: An American Story, p. 118, and cited in "Ford - The Men and the Machine", p. 365). The Model T Ford had a knob right on the dashboard to adjust the fuel-air mixture for either alcohol or gas

  • Alcohol does not corrode or shorten the lifespan of modern cars, and an inexpensive adjustment to regular cars will make them run smoothly and inexpensively on alcohol

So if alcohol can provide a cheaper and better fuel than alcohol, why doesn't anyone talk about it today?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember in the late 70's NHRA using Alcohol and of course ethanol blends for cars. But I was never aware that it was a big deal at the turn of the century.

Imagine how many local/regional distilleries would pop up to fill you tank at.
Click to expand...


And we wouldn't have to ruin the earth by burning dead dinosaurs, or does alcohol pollute the same as gasoline???

 
L

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
7,013
1,296
San Diego
Alcohol does not REMOVE any water, it holds it in suspension ( small particulates) in the fuel so it can flow thru the system & burn

 
Grande Mastere Dreade

Grande Mastere Dreade

Snag's spellchecker
20,571
5,042
30°26'36.2"N 88°32'13.8"W
i prefer to drink alcohol,  i leave the gasoline to the morons

flames-384359.jpg


 
mikewof

mikewof

mikewof
45,868
1,246
billy backstay said:
If engines can run on pure alcohol better than gasoline, then why does a little ethanol added fuck up many outboard and other motors???
Click to expand...
Because it binds with the oil and reduces the internal lubrication.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
mikewof

mikewof

mikewof
45,868
1,246
Meat Wad said:
So I get the spam email about Rockfeller and how he killed an alternative fuel. Of course there was a link (no I did not click it).

I did a search (duck duck go) and found some stuff I did not know. I'm not sure why this was not discussed in the History series "The Titans that built America"

I wonder what the carbon output is of a vehicle on alcohol is?
Click to expand...
This isn't too complicated ...

Here is the chemical formula for a typical alcohol: C2H5OH

And the chemical formula for octane: C₈H₁₈ 

The carbon does fuck-all for the combustion, in fact, it shields the combustion, and makes it less efficient. The oxygen could have some stored energy depending on how it can be broken off of the molecule, but usually not much. The real energy in both of these is the hydrogen. So for the octane, you have 18 hydrogen atom's worth of binding energy from combustion, once they cleave from the carbon chain. For the alcohol, you have 5 hydrogen atom's worth of energy once they cleave from the carbon chain. There is also that OH that probably won't cleave, because it is already fairly stable compared to the heat of combustion.

The efficiency cut of the octane in combustion comes from the carbon, so aside from the OH radical, the alcohol will have a more efficient combustion, because there is less carbon to block the reaction. The octane has a bit less than three times the energy per molecule once you consider the carbon chain. BUT, you will need to react some 3x more alcohol than gasoline to get the same energy output, which then lowers the efficiency of the reaction. Alcohol does burn fairly clean, as anyone who has had an Origo stove in their sailboat can attest. BUT, it's energy density for moving around heavy vehicles kinda sucks, while the mass density isn't much better than gasoline.

As for the Rockefeller conspiracy, I wouldn't put anything past that guy, but in this case, it was mostly industrial opportunity. Originally, people didn't even use the gasoline that came from the Kerosene refining process. It was discarded because it was seen as too volatile and difficult to store and transport. The market was for kerosene, which became diesel. Rockefeller's doing was to make use of an undesired co-product from the crude oil refining. It was a smart move, in my opinion, it allowed for growth of the whole crude oil market. Yes, we need to be done with it asap, to move to a low-entropy energy method, but it got us to this place.

 
Raz'r

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,131
5,850
De Nile
Meat Wad said:
So I get the spam email about Rockfeller and how he killed an alternative fuel. Of course there was a link (no I did not click it).

I did a search (duck duck go) and found some stuff I did not know. I'm not sure why this was not discussed in the History series "The Titans that built America"

I wonder what the carbon output is of a vehicle on alcohol is?

here are a few excerpts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Rockefeller, Ford and the Secret History of Alcohol


There's a secret history regarding alcohol that you won't hear on the six o'clock news:
  • Cars and everything else running on internal combustion engines can run on alcohol at least as well as they can run on gasoline. Indeed, engines were built back in 1870 that could run using either alcohol or gasoline

  • A New York Times article from 1908 enthusiastically states:



"Autoists Discuss Alcohol As Fuel; Great Future Ahead For Use In Commercial Wagons, Says Prof. Lucke. Tests With Motor Truck E.R. Hewitt Tells Engineers Of His Results With Gasoline And Alcohol In Same Engine"



  • Henry Ford said that alcohol was "a cleaner, nicer, better fuel for automobiles than gasoline" (James Brough, The Ford Dynasty: An American Story, p. 118, and cited in "Ford - The Men and the Machine", p. 365). The Model T Ford had a knob right on the dashboard to adjust the fuel-air mixture for either alcohol or gas

  • Alcohol does not corrode or shorten the lifespan of modern cars, and an inexpensive adjustment to regular cars will make them run smoothly and inexpensively on alcohol

So if alcohol can provide a cheaper and better fuel than alcohol, why doesn't anyone talk about it today?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember in the late 70's NHRA using Alcohol and of course ethanol blends for cars. But I was never aware that it was a big deal at the turn of the century.

Imagine how many local/regional distilleries would pop up to fill you tank at.
Click to expand...
The simple answer is to look up the BTUs in a gallon of each. Also, forced ethanol production in the US has had devastating enviro effects and has a horrible consequence of making tortillas expensive in Mexico….

 
R

Rambler

Super Anarchist
1,123
722
East Coast OZ
Don't forget that - in a moment in history were food shortages are predicted - it also means you've converting food prodicing land to energy produicung land. Might not be a good idea

 
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