Alinghi Challenge AC37

[accnick]

So if you take the PC outside you can run your CFD testing?  :lol:

Don't be daft. Only the testing itself can be done in open air and on open water, and consistent with all the requirements of article 24. 

Try reading rather than being a smartass.

 

[floater]

So, how advanced are the AI/Simulator tools used by Red Bull and Mercedes, AMG F1 teams?

Would these teams have anything to offer TNZ's tool development? Obviously they won't, but this might well be the competitive advantage, right there.

Thoughts?

My thought is that an F1 team will know fuck-all about fluid dynamics. And given ETNZ seemed to do this part better than the rest last time around - don't see that head start surrendered easily. At least not because of the entry of an aerodynamics team - even if they are world-beaters. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[Sailbydate]

Don't be daft. Only the testing itself can be done in open air and on open water, and consistent with all the requirements of article 24. 

Try reading rather than being a smartass.

You might have missed the virtual purple font, I think Nick.  :lol:

 

[accnick]

You might have missed the virtual purple font, I think Nick.  :lol:

That is entirely  possible. I apologize to Jethrow.

The irony is I have heard supposedly knowledgeable people make similar arguments in all seriousness for things that are equally improbable. The response to them is always "don't be a wanker."

 

[atwinda]

My thought is that an F1 team will know fuck-all about fluid dynamics. And given ETNZ seemed to do this part better than the rest last time around - don't see that head start surrendered easily. At least not because of the entry of an aerodynamics team - even if they are world-beaters. Unless I'm missing something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

TLDR: Fluid dynamics is comprised of both areo and hydrodynamics.

What I think you meant to say, was that they don't have specific tooling for hydrodynamics, but I believe they would be able to overcome that in short order given their overwhelming understanding of aerodynamics.

 

[P Flados]

On the foil testing front, is there a "loophole". 

Lets say that Alinghi contracts to use the analytical services of EFPL (the folks that are doing the SP80 work).  Lets say EB also sees to it that the SP80 effort gets a big financial boost in their efforts to take the 500 meter speed sailing record from Paul Larsen.  With the extra cash, EFPL dives into a crash effort with tons of high speed tank testing of a variety of "SP80" foils to better set up their analytical models for high speed foiling.  Can EFPL / Alinghi then use these models to do design work for the AC foils?        

 

[accnick]

On the foil testing front, is there a "loophole". 

Lets say that Alinghi contracts to use the analytical services of EFPL (the folks that are doing the SP80 work).  Lets say EB also sees to it that the SP80 effort gets a big financial boost in their efforts to take the 500 meter speed sailing record from Paul Larsen.  With the extra cash, EFPL dives into a crash effort with tons of high speed tank testing of a variety of "SP80" foils to better set up their analytical models for high speed foiling.  Can EFPL / Alinghi then use these models to do design work for the AC foils?        

I suspect not. The Protocol says "at any scale", so if you can derive useful data from that testing that you could thereafter use in the design of AC 75 foils, you would in all likelihood have breached the Protocol. I suspect that is how the arbitration panel would look at it, if it became publicly known.

if you do it surreptitiously, then you are effectively admitting you know it is a violation of the Protocol. If you did it openly--which you would do if you thought it complied--it would go straight to arbitration, and I wouldn't like your odds of success.

 

[Fiji Bitter]

if you do it surreptitiously, then you are effectively admitting you know it is a violation of the Protocol.

And if Ernie then falls out with a Wussell type, it might cost him more than 3 million to keep his mouth shut.

Anyway, I think Ernesto will play it fair and cool, this time. And so will all the others, who are all sailors with a huge reputation to lose.

 

[buckdouger]

There is not really "one tool"... They'll be various specialty tools- maybe one to analyze a foil shape and predict hydro flow results, maybe another which uses those results to gage surface deformation, etc.. Then those various results are used to maybe run a F1 car or AC75 around a track, so you can try 1000s of different scenarios without ever having to produce scale models and tow them in a tank, etc.. The AI will come into play once certain characteristics have been set as control properties. The AI can analyze the results of the runs and tease out information which humans would likely miss, and then feed that back into the original models to make adjustments- and around-and-around it goes. None of this stuff is really new- it's all been around, it's just that more recently it's become more feasible to do it at ac75 scale with more than just major components modeled.

How well the F1 teams can integrate into an existing teams work flow is one consideration (more INEOS, LRPP). For Alinghi, even with Red Bull's tooling and help, they are behind, simply because they don't have existing models, tooling, work flow.

They are ahead of where ETNZ/LRPP/AM/INEOS B1's were in terms of the hull design corner of the box- as they all ended up with some form of skeg, so they have some visual queues of where to start, but even then, pretty far behind.

Some remnants of Artemis remain as an applied technology consultancy. Might be possible to pay to start from that. Is Bernasconi's firm's Gomboc commercially available? How likely is it to have an exclusive-to-ETNZ license? I'm sure they have proprietary parts they might have developed with the ETNZ hat on but maybe there is still something licensable of value. 

 

[floater]

What I think you meant to say, was that they don't have specific tooling for hydrodynamics, but I believe they would be able to overcome that in short order given their overwhelming understanding of aerodynamics.

yeah. no. there used to be a genuine AC fluid dynamacist 'on staff' here - @bascilus - who would occasionally and generously share his wisdom. My impression - especially when the foils approach critical velocity and cavitation becomes a factor - is that its a very distinct science. and in fact, not well understood.

 

[Schakel]

can they use the Large Hadron Collider then?

Agree i'll re-engineer Atlas the particle detector.
I have a friend who does that all the time; life time work.
He's so intelliggent he won't join this forum. Rubbish is his final verdict... He doesn't sail, no time for that...

 

[enigmatically2]

yeah. no. there used to be a genuine AC fluid dynamacist 'on staff' here - @bascilus - who would occasionally and generously share his wisdom. My impression - especially when the foils approach critical velocity and cavitation becomes a factor - is that its a very distinct science. and in fact, not well understood.

His point was that F1 do know a lot about fluid dynamics because aero-dynamics is a a subset of fluid dynamics.

But they won't have the expertise in hydro-dynamics (which in turn includes cavitation). I suspect it is well enough understood that with designers from AC36 they and their models can quickly be adopted though

Which reminds to ask (to save me reading through every line of the class rule again), does anyone know whether they have removed the prohibition on exotic surface finishes? Because a hydro-phobic surface could/would decrease cavitation substantially

 

[Xlot]

yeah. no. there used to be a genuine AC fluid dynamacist 'on staff' here - @bascilus - who would occasionally and generously share his wistdom. My impression - especially when the foils approach critical velocity and cavitation becomes a factor - is that its a very distinct science. and in fact, not well understood.

It’s @Basiliscus.  Let’s see if he bites

 

[JonRowe]

Don't be daft. Only the testing itself can be done in open air and on open water, and consistent with all the requirements of article 24. 

Try reading rather than being a smartass.

PC's run really badly in salt water :lol:

 

[atwinda]

His point was that F1 do know a lot about fluid dynamics because aero-dynamics is a a subset of fluid dynamics.

But they won't have the expertise in hydro-dynamics (which in turn includes cavitation). I suspect it is well enough understood that with designers from AC36 they and their models can quickly be adopted though

Exactly. A collaboration at a design level (shared software tooling, etc) with a F1 team is much different than partnering with a company like Airbus. Airbus probably knows a ton about aerodynamics, but in terms of lifting big heavy air planes off the ground, so a cup team is more likely to benefit from shared compute and rapid prototyping resources rather than design loop phases.

Really the benefit from any F1 colab is going to rely on what exactly is being shared, and whether or not it can apply to the AC teams use case.

But to say F1 teams know fuck all about fluid dynamics is simply incorrect.

 

[Chobani Sailor]

PC's run really badly in salt water :lol:

And all the sensors on the boats hate salt water too.

 

[floater]

to say F1 teams know fuck all about fluid dynamics is simply incorrect.

lol. I bet the teams responsible for keeping four wheels on the ground less than useless for lifting a hull out of the water. Not to mention - they've also got a day job - or so I'm told.

at the end of the day it comes down to people. its always possible somebody brilliant can make the leap. But who do you think would be more useful: a PhD fresh out of college with relevant background - or somebody steeped in motor sports. I guess the red bull brings the hype - but I'm not buying it.

 

[floater]

And all the sensors on the boats hate salt water too.

so.. not a good idea?

 

[Chobani Sailor]

so.. not a good idea?

Airbus, HH, Parker, Quantum and BMW never have to participate in an America's Cup again - they will get free advertising every cup cycle even if AM exists or disappears

 

[atwinda]

lol. I bet the teams responsible for keeping four wheels on the ground less than useless for lifting a hull out of the water. Not to mention - they've also got a day job - or so I'm told.

at the end of the day it comes down to people. its always possible somebody brilliant can make the leap. But who do you think would be more useful: a PhD fresh out of college with relevant background - or somebody steeped in motor sports. I guess red bull brings some hype - but I'm not buying it.

Got it, you have a pretty narrow opinion of what engineers are capable of.