Anchor Geekdom

421
221
Perth WA
I’m new to this section, but am very grateful for work done by Steve and all. I appreciate this question may have been asked before and apologise in advance.

 I was wondering if you had done any simple adjustments to some of the poorer setting anchors to see what impact they have. I’m particularly interested if a simple “curved beak” type arrangement on the tip of a delta would improve its setting. It could easily be done by welding on a piece of angle iron adjusted to shape. Ie trying to make it a bit more like a sarca excell. I understand that it may alter the tensile strength, the lead filler and corrosion resistance depending on the approach to the welds. But ignoring that for arguments sake and I were in a situation more remote than most, where I didn’t have a new anchor available, and I’m happy to weld, I’d be intrigued by what happened. Any comments/ suggestions? Essentially doing as many of our farmers do here (in OZ) with agricultural equipment (which isn’t too far from what we are using), and improve on what you have to hand

Regards CK

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
I’m new to this section, but am very grateful for work done by Steve and all. I appreciate this question may have been asked before and apologise in advance.

 I was wondering if you had done any simple adjustments to some of the poorer setting anchors to see what impact they have. I’m particularly interested if a simple “curved beak” type arrangement on the tip of a delta would improve its setting. It could easily be done by welding on a piece of angle iron adjusted to shape. Ie trying to make it a bit more like a sarca excell. I understand that it may alter the tensile strength, the lead filler and corrosion resistance depending on the approach to the welds. But ignoring that for arguments sake and I were in a situation more remote than most, where I didn’t have a new anchor available, and I’m happy to weld, I’d be intrigued by what happened. Any comments/ suggestions? Essentially doing as many of our farmers do here (in OZ) with agricultural equipment (which isn’t too far from what we are using), and improve on what you have to hand

Regards CK
Neither a Delta nor Excel have lead in the toe.

You seem to be suggesting that the difference, or the critical difference, between a Delta and Excel is the turned down toe.  Have you noticed the flange round the 'edge' of the fluke of the Excel?  Might the flange be useful.  Are the ballast ratios of the 2 anchors similar?  Is the profile of the fluke of the Delta 'so' similar to an Excel.

If you think its a flyer (and can weld) why not do it, try it and let us know.

To me - its like cheese - Delta is Kraft cheese (if you define Kraft cheese as being cheese) and Excel some boutique goats milk 'fromage' - both cheese - but entirely different.  You cannot change Kraft cheese into boutique goat's milk fromage and simply adding a turned down toe will not change a Delta into an Excel (or someone, like Lewmar, would have done it).

 

thinwater

Super Anarchist
1,045
134
Deale, MD
Its the depths of winter, for most of us, and anchor fanatics don't have much to discuss so this might make a refreshing change.

https://xyzairanchor.com

I have to admire someone with the persistence to persevere with an idea and take it to the market

Discuss
a. Before my time. No idea.

b. They show a test table, but it is from 2005 testing and is not the same XYZ (considerable modifications--might be better or worse).
0108-stainlessXYZ.jpg.optimal.jpg


 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
The benefit of the polished shank is  clear but how does the cable extension help? 
The cable extension reduces the resistance of the rode to burial, chains are chunky, wire is thin.  Anything, shank, shackle, swivel, chain has volume and resists burial.  Minimising bulk allows the anchor to dive more deeply, deep setting anchors have higher hold and resist yawing.  One reason to use a G70 rode, its thinner (or can be if you choose a smaller chain.  Bulk also increases the tension angle on the shank end - so as the rode buries your scope angle becomes irrelevant - its the tension angle at the shackle attached to the shank that is important - again, smaller shackle, no swivel, smaller chain keep the tension angle low.  The higher the tension angle (or scope when rode not buried) the larger the 'lift' component of the rode.

 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
6,241
1,716
Canada
To me - its like cheese - Delta is Kraft cheese (if you define Kraft cheese as being cheese) and Excel some boutique goats milk 'fromage' - both cheese - but entirely different.  You cannot change Kraft cheese into boutique goat's milk fromage
That sounds like you’re throwing down the gauntlet, issuing a challenge.  I assure you it can be done. By Unilever/Phillip-Morris-Kraft/DuPont Corp. chemists with enough R&D money.

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
Delta has lead in the tip. 
I think you will find that the Delta is a steel cast solid toe as is a Kobra.  The Excel is slightly different it is a steel box into which steel is cast and an end plate welded on.  Spade is a steel box with lead cast into the space (and now has a resin cap to seal the lead).  Rocna is also ballasted but by use of steel plate with, about, twice the thickness of steel the rest of the fluke.  Because the steel of the Rocna does not have the focus of Spade's lead or Exc els casting - they need a roll bar.

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
That sounds like you’re throwing down the gauntlet, issuing a challenge.  I assure you it can be done. By Unilever/Phillip-Morris-Kraft/DuPont Corp. chemists with enough R&D money.
I am sure you are correct - whether the market will stand the R&D cost is another issue.  As Steve has found and points out little design differences can make out of proportion performance differences - change one thing and the performance changes, often unexpectedly and usually negatively.  Getting all the various facets in balance relies on a lot of R&D, call it money (or luck).  

It was a challenge:

If you think you have an idea - then try it.  Don't expect other people to try it for you.  Once your idea works - then ask others to try it.  Delta alone to took months to develop and though it 'looks' like an Excel (or vice versa) the performance differences (again as Steve underlines) are enormous - out of proportion to the 'supposed' similarity of design.  In fact to say the designs are similar misses, or understates, the differences.

The idea that adding a turned down toe to a Delta will make it perform like an Excel (might be right) but is more like ..... clutching at straws, a romantic idea and can hardly be original.

 
421
221
Perth WA
I totally agree that this would be an exercise of trial and error by an enthusiast, and I wouldn’t ask someone else to do it necessarily on my behalf. Though at present my arc welder is in need of replacement. I have a mate who can help out for beer or money. 

It’s important to realise many of the designs on the market were from guys mucking around with what they had in their workshop. Im not saying that the designs should be without any engineering input either. 
If the modern delta is solid steel then the concerns of a weld over a lead ballast are removed. If you’re concerned about keeping an edge on the tip then “hard face” the edge with appropriate welding rods, just as you would with the jaws on a bucket for a grader (or a plough).

If we foster a society that assumes those products sold to us from a large company or it’s equivalent Chinese knock off are the only legitimate answers to our problems then we emasculate innovation. Bugger straws, romance or American attempts at cheese ;-). (And obviously if one was to produce a device that worked it would need appropriate engineering input to ensure it was fit for purpose before sale).

So again my question was to Steve or anyone else out there who may have tried it. That is has anyone tried to weld a short piece to the tip of the fluke of a delta (these appear to be so ubiquitous around where I am) to change its profile slightly so it looks a bit like the beak of a bird of prey? Like a short bent section of angle iron (easy to “hard face” the edges). I do recall Steve having a go at modifying some of his anchors.

regards CK

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
I totally agree that this would be an exercise of trial and error by an enthusiast, and I wouldn’t ask someone else to do it necessarily on my behalf. Though at present my arc welder is in need of replacement. I have a mate who can help out for beer or money. 

It’s important to realise many of the designs on the market were from guys mucking around with what they had in their workshop. Im not saying that the designs should be without any engineering input either. 
If the modern delta is solid steel then the concerns of a weld over a lead ballast are removed. If you’re concerned about keeping an edge on the tip then “hard face” the edge with appropriate welding rods, just as you would with the jaws on a bucket for a grader (or a plough).

If we foster a society that assumes those products sold to us from a large company or it’s equivalent Chinese knock off are the only legitimate answers to our problems then we emasculate innovation. Bugger straws, romance or American attempts at cheese ;-). (And obviously if one was to produce a device that worked it would need appropriate engineering input to ensure it was fit for purpose before sale).

So again my question was to Steve or anyone else out there who may have tried it. That is has anyone tried to weld a short piece to the tip of the fluke of a delta (these appear to be so ubiquitous around where I am) to change its profile slightly so it looks a bit like the beak of a bird of prey? Like a short bent section of angle iron (easy to “hard face” the edges). I do recall Steve having a go at modifying some of his anchors.

regards CK
I note a contradiction - I believe Anchor Right, who seem to have introduced the turned down toe, are a small (non-Chinese) innovative, manufacturing company, they use Australian steel but you appear to be suggesting that someone (say Steve) 'knocks off' one of the significant design characteristics.  How exactly does that encourage innovation.  However you would not be the first as the Ultra anchor also has a turned down toe, of a different design to the Excel (but presumably with a similar objective).  The Excel is not the first - the Super SARCA also has a, less pronounced, turned down toe - Anchor Right are obviously committed to the idea and I am sure they will applaud someone, an Australian!, encouraging people to copy their innovation(s)  

Ultimate flattery. :(

I do note that anchor design is a hive of copying - its part of the furniture (and Anchor Right along with others have copied the self deploying, self righting shank of Simpson Lawrence' Delta).

 
421
221
Perth WA
Hi I think this may be the usual difference in English usage as spoken between nations. When I use the term "Knock off", I mean a copy. I was not making any insinuations about Steve, but was implying that copies of other designs (or Knock offs ) were in the mix. I mention Steve doing alterations on anchors because he has, that doesn't imply I believe the practice wrong, far from it. Steve is experimenting with design. I seem to recall that he felt copies of originals had poorer outcomes on his trials.

My suggestion is that anyone attempting to improve on a design is trying to innovate. They may not be successful. But they may see an issue and try to change it, instead of just waiting for the next installment from a large company.

On another note Australia does have a practice of sending vast quantities of iron ore to China, only to exchange it for value added, land fill.

Unfortunately the quality of much imported Chinese steel (and for that sake many other metals) is inferior to that produced here. We've had faults with a variety of structures because cheaper Chinese imports were selected by contractors. We had a local Hospital under construction require significant reworking because of high lead content in brass taps for water supplies. However we continue to by this stuff because its cheap (for those that source it, not necessarily the final purchaser). This has caused a local manufacturing base to go tits up. I presume this may be a familiar concept in your country.

 

cje

Anarchist
535
80
Delta is easily modified to mimic the Excel and double its performance. 

Excel could also do with some improvements. Fix that garbage shackle shank slot for starters. Many Excel sizes wont fit an international standard shackle. Sharp edges that rake galvanizing from its shank and tear up shackles. The fluke has horns that hook into certain chain links sizes and wont let go of a wrap. 

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
Delta is easily modified to mimic the Excel and double its performance. 

Excel could also do with some improvements. Fix that garbage shackle shank slot for starters. Many Excel sizes wont fit an international standard shackle. Sharp edges that rake galvanizing from its shank and tear up shackles. The fluke has horns that hook into certain chain links sizes and wont let go of a wrap. 
I hear from colleagues in Canada that the issue of the shackle slot (which was a disgrace, as you rightly point out, has been rectified).   For those that are unaware - the historic slot was 'too' narrow and the shackles locked up.  This issue was exacerbated as the slots were cut leaving sharp edges which increased the opportunity for shackles to lock up.  The answer was simple, slightly bigger slots and bevel the sharp edges (like, some other anchor makers do).  The issue simply underlined a lack of understanding.

You don't underline the point but shackles are one of the few devices where, say, a 3/8th" shackle has the same dimensions - everywhere.  There might be slight differences - but they really are slight.  So if you buy a 3/8th" shackle in the UK its the same size as one from Campbell, Peerless, Crosby and anyone making them in China (though the quality, strength, might vary).  There was simply no excuse for not making the slots to accomodate that unique product  - an international standard.

Those fluke horns at the heel are also a real issue (as is) and I have not heard that the issue is being addressed.  A problem might be - those horns are there for a reason and modifying them might be difficult - how would I know.  If you are lucky, or sensible, and have downsized to G70 chain - then the appropriate anchor does not allow the chain to lock into the horns - as the links are smaller in proportion to the horns.

Picking up on Captain K's posts - we all want cheaper products, the Excel anchor is proven, it might enjoy some further development - but the route to lowering costs is to cast the fluke (guess where) and weld the shank on in Australia.   (Tell you partner the cast flukes are to be used to plough minefields - that should be enough of a diversion :) ).  Cast flukes are now de rigour, Kobra, Rocna, Vulcan, Epsilon, Delta - they are all cast in the same country - there are no complaints.  Go for it!

I second CapT K's comment, even if I was playing Devils Advocate (and apparently picking on CK) but an answer lies with someone willing to take the bull by the horns, make the changes necessary and take advantage of the proven path (cast flukes) have a few thousand made - pile them high, sell them cheap.  "Modified", call it improved, Spade, Excel are ripe for the plucking.

 
421
221
Perth WA
I'm not suggesting that a designers hard work and all the R and D involved in producing a product should be negated and we must try and get a cheaper version. Ive got to respect the effort involved, and I expect that will incur a cost if I want their product.

I'm just saying well Ive got this delta or whatever, can I make it perform better? I'm glad its stimulated discussion. I was just interested if anyone had had a go before I get the angle grinder out. Regards CK

 

Saw Q

Member
109
2
I'm not suggesting that a designers hard work and all the R and D involved in producing a product should be negated and we must try and get a cheaper version. Ive got to respect the effort involved, and I expect that will incur a cost if I want their product.

I'm just saying well Ive got this delta or whatever, can I make it perform better? I'm glad its stimulated discussion. I was just interested if anyone had had a go before I get the angle grinder out. Regards CK


Captain - you go for it.  There are hundreds of Delta's skulking somewhere looking for the meaning of life.  If you ca modify a Delta to perform as well as, or as close as makes no difference, to an Excel, Spade, Viking or Rocna you will provide a service to the community.  'cje' seems to think it possible (I look to be persuaded) maybe he has ideas as I am sure he has reason behind his post :)

 

cje

Anarchist
535
80
I hear from colleagues in Canada that the issue of the shackle slot (which was a disgrace, as you rightly point out, has been rectified).   For those that are unaware - the historic slot was 'too' narrow and the shackles locked up.  This issue was exacerbated as the slots were cut leaving sharp edges which increased the opportunity for shackles to lock up.  The answer was simple, slightly bigger slots and bevel the sharp edges (like, some other anchor makers do).  The issue simply underlined a lack of understanding.

You don't underline the point but shackles are one of the few devices where, say, a 3/8th" shackle has the same dimensions - everywhere.  There might be slight differences - but they really are slight.  So if you buy a 3/8th" shackle in the UK its the same size as one from Campbell, Peerless, Crosby and anyone making them in China (though the quality, strength, might vary).  There was simply no excuse for not making the slots to accomodate that unique product  - an international standard.

Those fluke horns at the heel are also a real issue (as is) and I have not heard that the issue is being addressed.  A problem might be - those horns are there for a reason and modifying them might be difficult - how would I know.  If you are lucky, or sensible, and have downsized to G70 chain - then the appropriate anchor does not allow the chain to lock into the horns - as the links are smaller in proportion to the horns.

Picking up on Captain K's posts - we all want cheaper products, the Excel anchor is proven, it might enjoy some further development - but the route to lowering costs is to cast the fluke (guess where) and weld the shank on in Australia.   (Tell you partner the cast flukes are to be used to plough minefields - that should be enough of a diversion :) ).  Cast flukes are now de rigour, Kobra, Rocna, Vulcan, Epsilon, Delta - they are all cast in the same country - there are no complaints.  Go for it!

I second CapT K's comment, even if I was playing Devils Advocate (and apparently picking on CK) but an answer lies with someone willing to take the bull by the horns, make the changes necessary and take advantage of the proven path (cast flukes) have a few thousand made - pile them high, sell them cheap.  "Modified", call it improved, Spade, Excel are ripe for the plucking.


I hear from colleagues in Canada that the issue of the shackle slot (which was a disgrace, as you rightly point out, has been rectified).   For those that are unaware - the historic slot was 'too' narrow and the shackles locked up.  This issue was exacerbated as the slots were cut leaving sharp edges which increased the opportunity for shackles to lock up.  The answer was simple, slightly bigger slots and bevel the sharp edges (like, some other anchor makers do).  The issue simply underlined a lack of understanding.

You don't underline the point but shackles are one of the few devices where, say, a 3/8th" shackle has the same dimensions - everywhere.  There might be slight differences - but they really are slight.  So if you buy a 3/8th" shackle in the UK its the same size as one from Campbell, Peerless, Crosby and anyone making them in China (though the quality, strength, might vary).  There was simply no excuse for not making the slots to accomodate that unique product  - an international standard.

Those fluke horns at the heel are also a real issue (as is) and I have not heard that the issue is being addressed.  A problem might be - those horns are there for a reason and modifying them might be difficult - how would I know.  If you are lucky, or sensible, and have downsized to G70 chain - then the appropriate anchor does not allow the chain to lock into the horns - as the links are smaller in proportion to the horns.

Picking up on Captain K's posts - we all want cheaper products, the Excel anchor is proven, it might enjoy some further development - but the route to lowering costs is to cast the fluke (guess where) and weld the shank on in Australia.   (Tell you partner the cast flukes are to be used to plough minefields - that should be enough of a diversion :) ).  Cast flukes are now de rigour, Kobra, Rocna, Vulcan, Epsilon, Delta - they are all cast in the same country - there are no complaints.  Go for it!

I second CapT K's comment, even if I was playing Devils Advocate (and apparently picking on CK) but an answer lies with someone willing to take the bull by the horns, make the changes necessary and take advantage of the proven path (cast flukes) have a few thousand made - pile them high, sell them cheap.  "Modified", call it improved, Spade, Excel are ripe for the plucking.
Ya well... Rex was informed about these issues years ago and he decided to be a prick. If I owned an Excel I'd ask for a new one that was proper.

My concept for the Delta is bolt on. 

Steve. Is there a reason you didn't post your last vids on SA? 

 




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