And Elon just made a couple of Hundred Billion $$ more today

Burning Man

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SpaceX beating Russian jamming attack was ‘eyewatering’: DoD official



“The way that Starlink was able to upgrade when a threat showed up, we need to be able to have that ability," said Dave Tremper, the Pentagon's director of electronic warfare. "We have to be able to change our electromagnetic posture, to be able to change very dynamically what we're trying to do without losing capability along the way.”


https://breakingdefense.com/2022/04/spacex-beating-russian-jamming-attack-was-eyewatering-dod-official/

 

Olsonist

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Jeff, we’ll see. As even the FA sez, Musk is famously something of a showboater in his public comments. If all Starlink did was some cheap frequency hopping (invented by Heddy Lamarr!) that won’t last long. He shoulda STFU and it would have lasted longer. But he had to run his mouth off.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2292387A/en

The Russians are also jamming GPS. But since the Russians have been doing this for years, we’ve developed countermeasures to discriminate true signal from jamming.

Russian dumb jamming is not nearly as clever as the GPS spoofing the Iranians used to steal one of our drones. That was epic (if annoying).

 
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SloopJonB

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Musk is going to need a top hat.

Wealth Concentration.jpg

 

Burning Man

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Jeff, we’ll see. As even the FA sez, Musk is famously something of a showboater in his public comments. If all Starlink did was some cheap frequency hopping (invented by Heddy Lamarr!) that won’t last long. He shoulda STFU and it would have lasted longer. But he had to run his mouth off.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2292387A/en

The Russians are also jamming GPS. But since the Russians have been doing this for years, we’ve developed countermeasures to discriminate true signal from jamming.

Russian dumb jamming is not nearly as clever as the GPS spoofing the Iranians used to steal one of our drones. That was epic (if annoying).
Then you obviously don't know how the DOD or the MIC works.   :lol:

 

Sol Rosenberg

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Jeff, we’ll see. As even the FA sez, Musk is famously something of a showboater in his public comments. If all Starlink did was some cheap frequency hopping (invented by Heddy Lamarr!) that won’t last long. He shoulda STFU and it would have lasted longer. But he had to run his mouth off.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2292387A/en

The Russians are also jamming GPS. But since the Russians have been doing this for years, we’ve developed countermeasures to discriminate true signal from jamming.

Russian dumb jamming is not nearly as clever as the GPS spoofing the Iranians used to steal one of our drones. That was epic (if annoying).
That’s Hedley! 

 

mikewof

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Then you obviously don't know how the DOD or the MIC works.   :lol:
Would you explain it then? Light is light, it can be modulated in wavelength and intensity. What "electromagnetic posture" was changed here other than wavelength, intensity or signal-noise processing?

 

BeSafe

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Would you explain it then? Light is light, it can be modulated in wavelength and intensity. What "electromagnetic posture" was changed here other than wavelength, intensity or signal-noise processing?
So, what makes Starlink actually important and resistant to jamming is the adaptive AI that automatically updates and reroutes communications to minimize interference and the MASSIVE number of satellites that make up the constellation.

You're not blocking a satellite or a few satellites, you're having to block up to a dozen any time with LOS over your target with satellites constantly entering and leaving the target space.  And those satellites are constantly routing the packets - including bouncing to each other - to give the best data throughput.

You CAN blind them.. but you'd have to be white-noise paint the whole sky, thereby blocking your OWN satellite communication.

All Musk had to do was tell his engineers to give communications over Ukraine highest priority and the computers do the rest.

 

Raz'r

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So, what makes Starlink actually important and resistant to jamming is the adaptive AI that automatically updates and reroutes communications to minimize interference and the MASSIVE number of satellites that make up the constellation.

You're not blocking a satellite or a few satellites, you're having to block up to a dozen any time with LOS over your target with satellites constantly entering and leaving the target space.  And those satellites are constantly routing the packets - including bouncing to each other - to give the best data throughput.

You CAN blind them.. but you'd have to be white-noise paint the whole sky, thereby blocking your OWN satellite communication.

All Musk had to do was tell his engineers to give communications over Ukraine highest priority and the computers do the rest.
It’s kinda built into the core Internet Protocol. Remember DARPA? Build an internet that can handle nodes going down real time (in case of nukes hitting cities). The core routing tech just bypasses dead nodes…

 

mikewof

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So, what makes Starlink actually important and resistant to jamming is the adaptive AI that automatically updates and reroutes communications to minimize interference and the MASSIVE number of satellites that make up the constellation.

You're not blocking a satellite or a few satellites, you're having to block up to a dozen any time with LOS over your target with satellites constantly entering and leaving the target space.  And those satellites are constantly routing the packets - including bouncing to each other - to give the best data throughput.

You CAN blind them.. but you'd have to be white-noise paint the whole sky, thereby blocking your OWN satellite communication.

All Musk had to do was tell his engineers to give communications over Ukraine highest priority and the computers do the rest.
I get it, good system, in the way that the Tesla is a good electric car. But as Olsonist pointed out above, if this system just uses a computer and polar orbiters to do what humans used to do in WWII to run signals across the spectrum, it isn't necessarily all that disruptive.

The researchers at Pirelli once worked on a sensor that had self-organization across the crystalline dislocations, so it stair-stepped the nuclei of the elements to dramatically improve the cross-section of the nuclei to improve the weak-force sensitivity to neutrinos. I don't know if it worked, it would have been disruptive though, communicating with neutrinos; no more need for atmospheric skip, they move through normal matter like it isn't even there. But this Musk system, I'm not putting it down, and I've little doubt that someone in the Pentagon will happily write out a big check for it, but if the news came out of a lab rather than the war in Ukraine, would we even care that much?

 

BeSafe

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I get it, good system, in the way that the Tesla is a good electric car. But as Olsonist pointed out above, if this system just uses a computer and polar orbiters to do what humans used to do in WWII to run signals across the spectrum, it isn't necessarily all that disruptive.

The researchers at Pirelli once worked on a sensor that had self-organization across the crystalline dislocations, so it stair-stepped the nuclei of the elements to dramatically improve the cross-section of the nuclei to improve the weak-force sensitivity to neutrinos. I don't know if it worked, it would have been disruptive though, communicating with neutrinos; no more need for atmospheric skip, they move through normal matter like it isn't even there. But this Musk system, I'm not putting it down, and I've little doubt that someone in the Pentagon will happily write out a big check for it, but if the news came out of a lab rather than the war in Ukraine, would we even care that much?


From the little bit of information that's available, he's not doing anything 'revolutionary' - but what he's got is (a) more satellites (1400+?) and (b) decades of error correction to build upon.   Musk controls almost 1/3rd of all operational satellites in space today.  The other advantage is point-to-point satellite laser communication - that's inherently more resistant to jamming from earth.

There doesn't appear to be any spectrum jumping going on.  It's just torrent style data-packet parsing spread out over a reasonably large collection of nodes.  Again - what did the 'one line of code' do?  Probably nothing more than prioritize communications over a small collection of IP addresses.  Each satellite in the Starlink array is good for 40000 homes streaming 4k.  He sent out several thousand phase-array receivers to Ukraine - he knows who has them.  The math is in his favor on that one - any satellite picking up any signal bouncing around anywhere in low earth orbit can route it to its destination.

 
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Olsonist

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Doing a little reading, Starlink uses frequency hopping spread spectrum (Heddy) and direct sequence spread spectrum (GPS). This hybrid gets the advantages of both and masks the weaknesses of each. It's well understood best practices. Frequency Hopping is like Tom answering your post in another thread. Direct Sequence is like multiple labeled and choreographed carrier pigeons carrying white or black stones all of which on arrival encode a single bit according to a pre-agreed cypher.

The satellites are in Low Earth Orbit (550km vs GPS 20,200km) so they orbit really fast, 90 minutes vs GPS 12 hours. Low means low latency. Like GPS, you're connected to a constellation rather than one geostationary DirectTV bird 36,000km away. They're also significantly higher power, 100W at the home dish and 5MW on the bird than a 50W (!) at the GPS satellite. Frequencies are 10-30 GHz vs GPS 1.5GHz. Routing is peer to peer and uses something simpler than IPv6; but that all has more to do with net neutrality. It isn't important for jamming which attacks the link, not the route.

I'm beginning to feel a lot better about this because I don't think the Russians walk on water at all. The West on its better days, really walks on water. But anyone in Russia with even half a brain who is capable of dog paddling has left already. Silicon Valley is rotten with Russian expats.

What don't we know? We don't know how the Russians jammed Starlink and we don't know how Starlink actually addressed the problem. We know pretty much squat. This is more like a well choreographed press release than a news story. But Musk probably has a point about thanking the Russians for red teaming them.

BTW, Starlink is about a billion times better idea than Google's stupid Project Loon: use high altitude blimps.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/

 
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Burning Man

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Dear readers, please not I said nothing about Musk and Starlink necessarily being revolutionary or especially disruptive.  Allz I said was:  the rich just got a lot richer.  US Cyber command and US Space Force (god that sounds so fucking gay!) will be falling all over themselves to hand him bags of money.  

Edit: I should say MORE bags O' money.

 
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Dilligaf0220

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I'll be disruptive and say Starlink is to the Ukraine what the Patriot missile was to the Gulf War.

Lot's of press, but completely ineffectual.  It's high stakes 3 card Monte, using fake news as the shills. 

 




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