Another one bites the dust

[jhiller]

Vailiant yachts announced today that they have ceased building new sailboats . The email said that the economy had taken its toll on them. I was the proud owner of two Valiants, a 42 and a 50 both named James Gang and yes they were dated designs with pinched ends and there were a million reasons to find fault with them but they were the toughest built boats anywhere period....... Sad news for another American builder who gave a shit

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[Beak]

Sic transit Gloria Mundi. Poor Gloria.

Only snag is that you need to make yachts people want to buy. If people don't buy them, change your designs.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Only snag is that you need to make yachts people want to buy. If people don't buy them, change your designs.

I was going to suggest in the Hinckley thread that their newest sailboat be yet another jet boat instead for this reason, but didn't think you people want to hear it.

 

[Dan33]

I never saw one in person...but even in photos they have a dignity and look of confidence that I doubt can be photo-shopped it.

I guess the people who have them have another reason to keep them, and love them.

To bad they weren't a yacht builder/bank...our governments would throw money at them to keep them alive. Not enough votes in the yacht building community I guess.

I agree, it's a shame.

 

[kdh]

Only snag is that you need to make yachts people want to buy. If people don't buy them, change your designs.

I was going to suggest in the Hinckley thread that their newest sailboat be yet another jet boat instead for this reason, but didn't think you people want to hear it.

What's sad is that it seems that builders' response in making sailboats that people want to buy is to make a boat that looks exactly like their competition's boats. Where is the gaining of market share through differentiation?

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

There are plenty of "tennis shoe" sailboats, but Morris seems to be doing well with pretty boats, Com-Pac makes great (if slow) little catboats, and there's always MacGregor... h34r:

Even among the similar ones, there are differences. The 30' Hunter weighs quite a bit less than the 30' Catalina, and costs quite a bit less too.

 

[Beak]

Where is the gaining of market share through differentiation?

Perhaps there isn't any. Also, stunningly different designs tend to be expensive. You might see them as 'one offs', but not in production boats.

 

[kdh]

There are plenty of "tennis shoe" sailboats, but Morris seems to be doing well with pretty boats, Com-Pac makes great (if slow) little catboats, and there's always MacGregor... h34r:

Even among the similar ones, there are differences. The 30' Hunter weighs quite a bit less than the 30' Catalina, and costs quite a bit less too.

Good point.

 

[Nessun Dorma]

And pacific Seacraft, while they haven't done anything new in ages, has its own look and feel and niche And they are doing well under Brodie's leadership.

There are plenty of "tennis shoe" sailboats, but Morris seems to be doing well with pretty boats, Com-Pac makes great (if slow) little catboats, and there's always MacGregor... h34r:

Even among the similar ones, there are differences. The 30' Hunter weighs quite a bit less than the 30' Catalina, and costs quite a bit less too.

Good point.

 

[Bob Perry]

That's sad to hear but not a bad run for a boat that was designed 38 years ago.

 

[Mung Breath]

Why buy a new Valient when you buy a plethora of used cruising boats on a flooded market by more 'exclusive' brands for the same price or less? The Valient was a solid boat at a solid price. - a very practical niche. That's a great value proposition when your serious competition is priced 1.5x+. But when supply exceeds demand and those 'premium boat' prices drop like bricks.....good-bye value prop.

 

[Soñadora]

Honestly, while it's sad to see Valiant go, I think this is a good thing. Really.

I'm not a marketing major, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express once.

When it comes to new cruising boats, there are two types of buyers I think: Euro-buyers, and custom-built buyers. The trend in the U.S. seems to be the latter. I think this is great! Check out the Drool thread and you'll understand what I'm talking about. ND and Bob (and some others ) have gone through great pains to produce a very personalized vessel. Maybe there's potential for a limited run and that too I would consider as 'custom built'. The dollar cost for this will possibly be a little bit higher than, say, a HR or Cabo Rico of similar proportions, but the likelihood of this vessel changing hands any time in the future is very slim.

Coming from the manufacturing world, the very interesting thing is that the cost for custom designed/built products is getting very close to the cost for mass produced products. JIT (Just In Time) manufacturing has had a major impact. Builders do not stock massive parts inventories. They do not build/stockpile in hopes that they sell. Even operations like Hunter/Bene/Catalina, have minimized (and for some models eliminated) any built inventory.

Watch Pacific Seacraft (or as ND suggested, Atlantic-Pacific Seacraft ). I think Brodie has the right idea and this is the same direction Valiant is sort of heading - keep an active yard, build to order. We haven't seen the last of Valiants, I don't think. Unless they do something stupid like destroy the molds.

 

[Bob Perry]

If I had listened to all the "experts" 38 years ago I would have burned the plans to the Valiant 40.

 

[SemiSalt]

What's sad is that it seems that builders' response in making sailboats that people want to buy is to make a boat that looks exactly like their competition's boats.

I was thinking that about the Columbia boats. The started out with something a little different (a bit more freeboard, a bit more accommodation), and every time they've changed the product, it's looked less different and more like everyone else.

 

[Beak]

If I had listened to all the "experts" 38 years ago I would have burned the plans to the Valiant 40.

No, you don't listen to 'experts', you listen to customers.

 

[Nessun Dorma]

Frankly, and for all those out there who are thinking of new buys but are not sure about custom, the cost delta between semi custom (Shannon, PSC, Cabo, Morris, Halberg, etc) and custom is almost negligible in a larger boat (>40 ft). As a percentage of cost, a one off hull does not add much. Yes, there are no molds etc. for decks and some lost efficiency. But if you figure 22,000 man hours for a 52 to 58 footer, all that adds maybe an additional 1,000 to 1,500 man hours. 2k tops. At labor rates (fully loaded with DIRECT employee overhead) of about $30/hr., that adds about 45k to a new boat price. $60k tops.

That is a lot on a smaller boat as a %. But not so much as the boat gets bigger.

Anywhere from 50% to 100% of that amount can easily need to be added on by the semi custom builders who have advertising budgets and LOTS more fixed overhead.

So in the end, on a boat larger than 40 foot or so, the added cost (not including the designers fees) ads anywhere from $0 to maybe 1 or 2% to the price. 3% to 4% tops if you shop it around 9see below).

Is that too much to get the boat you want just as you want it?

But the REALLY great thing is you get to send the design out to 10 (or more) builders and get comments let the free market send you a top-quality builder who is hungry and willing when you hit the decks..At any point in time, builder "A" just wants the business more than B, C and D. And the world is a pretty fucking big place.

My new boat CATARI (see Drool thread) will not cost markedly more than a semi custom, unless I make it so by adding a lot of extraordinary things. More, yes, but not as much as folks might think.

I never knew. maybe others did. For me, its a learning.

So everybody should hire Bob ASAP.

But only when he is done with CATARI !!

Honestly, while it's sad to see Valiant go, I think this is a good thing. Really.

I'm not a marketing major, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express once.

When it comes to new cruising boats, there are two types of buyers I think: Euro-buyers, and custom-built buyers. The trend in the U.S. seems to be the latter. I think this is great! Check out the Drool thread and you'll understand what I'm talking about. ND and Bob (and some others ) have gone through great pains to produce a very personalized vessel. Maybe there's potential for a limited run and that too I would consider as 'custom built'. The dollar cost for this will possibly be a little bit higher than, say, a HR or Cabo Rico of similar proportions, but the likelihood of this vessel changing hands any time in the future is very slim.

Coming from the manufacturing world, the very interesting thing is that the cost for custom designed/built products is getting very close to the cost for mass produced products. JIT (Just In Time) manufacturing has had a major impact. Builders do not stock massive parts inventories. They do not build/stockpile in hopes that they sell. Even operations like Hunter/Bene/Catalina, have minimized (and for some models eliminated) any built inventory.

Watch Pacific Seacraft (or as ND suggested, Atlantic-Pacific Seacraft ). I think Brodie has the right idea and this is the same direction Valiant is sort of heading - keep an active yard, build to order. We haven't seen the last of Valiants, I don't think. Unless they do something stupid like destroy the molds.

 

[Bob Perry]

Beak:

We had no "customers" when I drew the V40. I just drew the boat I thought the cruising world needed and hoped the buyers would recognize it and come. They did. My client trusted me.

ND will tell you I do listen to customers/clients but I have to tune the peanut gallery out. Sometimes I have this weird idea that maybe before people post their comments they should list the boats they have designed.

Yes,I am an arrogant jerk. ND will tell you that. He reminds me from time to time and over time I have become comfortable with that. I've heard it a lot. My dog and cat like me. Actually my dog tolerates me but my cat thinks I'm cool. But I do my very best to give my clients the boat that will make them happy. That's what I think I do well. Along with feeding the cat on a diet of Ahi tuna.

 

[Nessun Dorma]

Bob, I think you are arrogant. And yes I tell you that a lot. But I love you anyway.

Only rarely do I say you area jerk.

But you have earned the right to be arrogant in boat stuff.

Beak:

We had no "customers" when I drew the V40. I just drew the boat I thought the cruising world needed and hoped the buyers would recognize it and come. They did. My client trusted me.

ND will tell you I do listen to customers/clients but I have to tune the peanut gallery out. Sometimes I have this weird idea that maybe before people post their comments they should list the boats they have designed.

Yes,I am an arrogant jerk. ND will tell you that. He reminds me from time to time and over time I have become comfortable with that. I've heard it a lot. My dog and cat like me. Actually my dog tolerates me but my cat thinks I'm cool. But I do my very best to give my clients the boat that will make them happy. That's what I think I do well. Along with feeding the cat on a diet of Ahi tuna.

 

[Bob Perry]

Maybe I'm wrong but I take "jerk" as a term of endearment.

Please tell me I'm right.