Antal Low Friction Rings and Genoa Cars

[RiptideIRL]

So for my no. 1 we use barber haulers on the sheet. BHs then run through the Genoa Car. Its an old system but it works - kinda of. We have some of those side-flipping barton genoa cars but the BHs dont stay on the roller. When we tack the leward car falls to leward (obvious I know) before the pressure comes onto the BH. For some reason the BH bring the car back upright which is a pain in the ass as the rope then frayed due to all the friction. My solution to this problem is the following:

Get 2 of these bad boys: 14.10 Rings

2 of these cars: Barton cars

My question is; what is the best way to lash the rings onto the car? They need to be tight to the metal ring on the car and also right around the ring - preferably standing upright but not essential.

 

[Presuming Ed]

Lash with 3/4mm dyneema, with frapping turns/half hitches around the lashing would be my bid.

 

[MSA]

One of these looped

through the Car and over the top of the Low friction ring.

Then figure 8 lash between the ring and the car to pull it tight and stop the loops coming off. It will probably sit 1/2 to 1" high.

 

[allene222]

am having a real hard time understanding what you are doing and would love to know. I use different terms where some folks use Barberhauler. A Barberhauler as originally used by Barber pulls out on the sheet to increase the sheeting angle. The opposite of that is an inhauler which pulls in on the sheet to decrease the sheeting angle. If you are pulling down to simulate moving the car forward, I call that a twing. Given these definitions, I would like to know which you are using.

In any event, the simplest way to use these Antal rings is the way they are used on my friends new Beneteau-30 and that is to just run the control line through the ring. For example, on a twing, tie the control line off on the rail car, bring it through the ring, back down through the car and back to your winch or power block. In the case of the Beneteau, they use a single block with a becket and tie the control line on the becket, then through the Antal ring, back throught the block, and back to the cockpit. The advantage of using the ring this way is you get a free 2:1 advantage. Because of friction it will be less than 2:1 but it will be way more than the 1:1 you would get by lashing the control to the ring. I made a sketch using both a twing and inhauler on a blade jib here My link. In this sketch I am using carabiners instead of rings but I now use a single ring for both jobs.

This is not, however, the way the rings are intended to be used and you can just as easily use a $5 REI Repel Ring like this My link

I use Amsteel for the control line as it goes on to a block arrangement for power so I am not pulling on the Amsteel. On the twing I go to a winch and switch to a covered line for the tail around the winch.

But if you want to use the Antal rings as intended, you basically either use an tight eye splice onto the ring or use the loop as MSA suggested.

Allen

L-36.com

 

[NonSequitur]

Been using these for a couple years now. Has worked really well for us. Spliced a loop in 3/16 sk75 large enough to make 4 passes around the antal ring and the padeye on the car, then seized at the base of the ring with 2mm sk75 to tighten the loop.

NS

 

[Merit 25]

easy peasy

/monthly_06_2012/post-23406-052935900%201340212382_thumb.jpg

 

[allene222]

Been using these for a couple years now. Has worked really well for us. Spliced a loop in 3/16 sk75 large enough to make 4 passes around the antal ring and the padeye on the car, then seized at the base of the ring with 2mm sk75 to tighten the loop.

NS

Do you have a picture showing more of what is going on with this line? What I see is a line that has a ring that moves along its axis apparently doing nothing. I assume that line actually goes off somewhere and that moving the car makes the adjustment. Anyway, can you explain more?

Allen

 

[NonSequitur]

No pic handy, but I can try to explain. The ring and car is my adjustable jib/genoa "block", just replaced a bearinged block with a low friction ring. The white line is the sheet, the yellow and white line (Apex) is a 3:1 genoa car adjustment line.

Hope that helps.

NS

Do you have a picture showing more of what is going on with this line? What I see is a line that has a ring that moves along its axis apparently doing nothing. I assume that line actually goes off somewhere and that moving the car makes the adjustment. Anyway, can you explain more?

Allen

 

[allene222]

No pic handy, but I can try to explain. The ring and car is my adjustable jib/genoa "block", just replaced a bearinged block with a low friction ring. The white line is the sheet, the yellow and white line (Apex) is a 3:1 genoa car adjustment line.

Hope that helps.

NS

That is very clear. Thanks. I was looking for how that was a Barberhauler and that had me confused. As a jib car it is all clear.

Allen

 

[RiptideIRL]

am having a real hard time understanding what you are doing and would love to know. I use different terms where some folks use Barberhauler. A Barberhauler as originally used by Barber pulls out on the sheet to increase the sheeting angle. The opposite of that is an inhauler which pulls in on the sheet to decrease the sheeting angle. If you are pulling down to simulate moving the car forward, I call that a twing. Given these definitions, I would like to know which you are using.

Yea Its a block that the twing (learned something new thanks!) will run through. Basically we use this twing to simulate bringing the car forward/back, plus we have another track for bringing the sheet lead inboard/outboard (see attached photo). Sheet = blue, Twing = green, pink = approx position of No 1 clew when beating. So its the car that the green twing is running through that I need to replace with a ring+car config.

/monthly_06_2012/post-45723-003026300%201340267423_thumb.jpg

(ignore the random grey line - paint flipped out and wasnt arsed doing it again!)

Might use the low friction rings on this too at some point.

Thanks for all your help guys. Pictures are great too.

 

[MSA]

Do you find you get a lot of sheet deflection and very bad gust response from that arrangement... i would hate to try and trim that, the foot would always setup flat for any given leech tension/twist required.

Why would you not use the usual fore-aft car system, ie 6:1 and then play sheet tension.

Currently you have a 1:1 jib sheet and then a 1:1 "twing" (can we please can this "lead", Ie "more lead up or down please")

If your theoretical sheeting point on the deck is aft of a Fore/aft track your track is in the wrong place or the Jib Clew is too high.

 

[Presuming Ed]

Have you swapped from overlapping to non overlapping?

How about swapping out from 3 tracks to just one athwartship track forward? Or even go Carkeek 40 (and Dragon and XOD) style, and just have a floating low friction ring, adjusted by two lines - one inboard and one outboard. Fairlead aft on deck to ensure a good lead to the winch.

 

[RiptideIRL]

Do you find you get a lot of sheet deflection and very bad gust response from that arrangement... i would hate to try and trim that, the foot would always setup flat for any given leech tension/twist required.

Why would you not use the usual fore-aft car system, ie 6:1 and then play sheet tension.

Currently you have a 1:1 jib sheet and then a 1:1 "twing" (can we please can this "lead", Ie "more lead up or down please")

I admit that after we bought the Riptide I was a bit sceptical about the genoa system. But since then Ive grown quite fond of it, but I dont quite know why. My inital plan was to use the standard 1 track stepup with a purchase adjustment system but due to the work and cost involved I decided to give this system a try. Plus we had 4 140% no. 1s cut, I assume, for this system, since its stock.

/monthly_06_2012/post-45723-006963500%201340270252_thumb.jpg

I know its a probably a no 3 considering the weather conditions in the photo but thats the system as shown on the builder brochure. Currently fixed up 2 lewmar 40ST winches to replace the stock pit winches to make everything a bit easyer to adjust. Planning to just leave the cars on the winches upwind for easy adjustment.

If your theoretical sheeting point on the deck is aft of a Fore/aft track your track is in the wrong place or the Jib Clew is too high.

I remember trying the lead/twing on the outboard track but it really didnt look nice at all. All the genoas set nice from the inside track so I went with that. Obviously I would like the lead to pull at a 90° angle, because I assume any more than that is just extra load for the same effect since Im working against the sheet. Its at ~65° angle at the moment at feels like everything is about to explode. In fact I lost one of the cars that the lead runs through last week.

Have you swapped from overlapping to non overlapping?

How about swapping out from 3 tracks to just one athwartship track forward? Or even go Carkeek 40 (and Dragon and XOD) style, and just have a floating low friction ring, adjusted by two lines - one inboard and one outboard. Fairlead aft on deck to ensure a good lead to the winch.

Still on overlapping. The big no. 1s we have are very nice for the drifters and light days. The leads/twings become a non-issue once we drop to the 3 as they arent used. Think I know what you mean about the C40 system but got a pic handy for arguments sake?

 

[MSA]

Do you find you get a lot of sheet deflection and very bad gust response from that arrangement... i would hate to try and trim that, the foot would always setup flat for any given leech tension/twist required.

Why would you not use the usual fore-aft car system, ie 6:1 and then play sheet tension.

Currently you have a 1:1 jib sheet and then a 1:1 "twing" (can we please can this "lead", Ie "more lead up or down please")

I admit that after we bought the Riptide I was a bit sceptical about the genoa system. But since then Ive grown quite fond of it, but I dont quite know why. My inital plan was to use the standard 1 track stepup with a purchase adjustment system but due to the work and cost involved I decided to give this system a try. Plus we had 4 140% no. 1s cut, I assume, for this system, since its stock.

/monthly_06_2012/post-45723-006963500%201340270252_thumb.jpg

I know its a probably a no 3 considering the weather conditions in the photo but thats the system as shown on the builder brochure. Currently fixed up 2 lewmar 40ST winches to replace the stock pit winches to make everything a bit easyer to adjust. Planning to just leave the cars on the winches upwind for easy adjustment.

If your theoretical sheeting point on the deck is aft of a Fore/aft track your track is in the wrong place or the Jib Clew is too high.

I remember trying the lead/twing on the outboard track but it really didnt look nice at all. All the genoas set nice from the inside track so I went with that. Obviously I would like the lead to pull at a 90° angle, because I assume any more than that is just extra load for the same effect since Im working against the sheet. Its at ~65° angle at the moment at feels like everything is about to explode. In fact I lost one of the cars that the lead runs through last week.

Have you swapped from overlapping to non overlapping?

How about swapping out from 3 tracks to just one athwartship track forward? Or even go Carkeek 40 (and Dragon and XOD) style, and just have a floating low friction ring, adjusted by two lines - one inboard and one outboard. Fairlead aft on deck to ensure a good lead to the winch.

Still on overlapping. The big no. 1s we have are very nice for the drifters and light days. The leads/twings become a non-issue once we drop to the 3 as they arent used. Think I know what you mean about the C40 system but got a pic handy for arguments sake?

Sorry if i wasn't clear, i would not sheet it to the outboard track, that would just make it flatter.. you need to have control of the sheeting point, it is what defines the shape, Overly long leads = no control.

 

[RiptideIRL]

Sorry if i wasn't clear, i would not sheet it to the outboard track, that would just make it flatter.. you need to have control of the sheeting point, it is what defines the shape, Overly long leads = no control.

Ah sorry now I understand what you mean. In other words the lead isnt restricting the movement of the sheet enough due to the length of the lead. Granted I have noticed the flex/bounce on the sheet when on the edge of the no. 1 and it obviously has a detremental effect. Although at that stage we really should have ditched to the 2. We can only hold the 1 up to 18 at the most.

I would prefer the track to be furth back/directly under the clew when set. Suppose I could fit a standing block there and run the lead through that ...

Anyway I might just pick up those rings and blocks anyway. Might redo the leads themselves with rings too while im at it.

 

[MSA]

If you draw a straight line from the lead/turningblock to the tack you will notice the whole sail will set "outside" of that line. When a sail is designed the Sheeting tracks are measured from centerline (Sheeting angle), allowing the sails to fall outside of this is not ideal.

Ie, we gain 3 degrees height on a boat I sail on by inhauling 2" bringing the clew just inside the track. at 4" we gain 5 degrees and can actually hold a lane upwind.

I know it sometimes isn't practical to move the track.. But there are a few things you can do to make it better if you are changing the systems anyway. Oh and have the next sails design to sheet to the track.

 

[RiptideIRL]

Oh and have the next sails design to sheet to the track.

noted

 

[allene222]

am having a real hard time understanding what you are doing and would love to know. I use different terms where some folks use Barberhauler. A Barberhauler as originally used by Barber pulls out on the sheet to increase the sheeting angle. The opposite of that is an inhauler which pulls in on the sheet to decrease the sheeting angle. If you are pulling down to simulate moving the car forward, I call that a twing. Given these definitions, I would like to know which you are using.

Yea Its a block that the twing (learned something new thanks!) will run through. Basically we use this twing to simulate bringing the car forward/back, plus we have another track for bringing the sheet lead inboard/outboard (see attached photo). Sheet = blue, Twing = green, pink = approx position of No 1 clew when beating. So its the car that the green twing is running through that I need to replace with a ring+car config.

/monthly_06_2012/post-45723-003026300%201340267423_thumb.jpg

(ignore the random grey line - paint flipped out and wasnt arsed doing it again!)

Might use the low friction rings on this too at some point.

Thanks for all your help guys. Pictures are great too.

This is very similar to what I use on my boat. I use the round cross section REI ring that I linked in my previous post. I use Amsteel as the control line for the twing in the section that goes through all this and switch to normal yacht braid for the section around the winch. On my inhauler, I also use Amsteel where it goes through rings but on that setup I have blocks for a 8:1 advantage and just switch to yacht braid in the block arrangement.

I have done testing on the friction you get in these setups and have made some rough calculations on some options. I will assume that the low friction ring you are looking at will be about the same as the REI ring. Here are the basic differences in ring size with Amsteel. Low number is good:

1) 1/4 inch ring 1.5

2) 1/2 inch ring 1.4

4 1 inch ring 1.3

The ring you are looking at is .6 diameter so it is going to be very close to the REI ring. I assume the same.

Here are some calculations for different options.

1) Low friction bearing block 1:1 - this is the baseline

2) Running the twing control line through a low friction ring - 0.7:1

3) Using just the eye on the car, attaching the control line to it, running it through the ring the sheet goes through (a low friction ring or the REI ring), then back down through the eye in the car. - 1.1:1 in other words this is better than using a bearing block on a 1:1 setup

4) Same as above but using a low friction ring attached to the eye on the car. - 1.2:1

In summary, what you are proposing with the low friction ring would give you a 0.7:1 setup where if you just rig it to the ring on the car you have you get 1.1:1 or about 60% more power and a simpler cheaper solution. See My link for details but just realize I don't use those carabiners any more as the round cross section rings make the setup slightly more efficient and generally cleaner.

Let me just add that having the twing and inhauler on the same ring has a couple of advantages. It keeps the ring from rattling around on the deck when it is on the lazy sheet. It also stabilizes the jib lead as you are holding it both in and down.

Allen

 

[RiptideIRL]

Ah I see what you are saying Allen. Thanks for that link!

Just one thing. In those drawings you have the twing running from the winch through a car on the genoa track. There must be a lot of friction there surely? Or maybe I'm just overestimating it.