Anyone ever sail a Freedom 40/40?

[mckenzie.keith]

Anyone ever sail a Freedom 40/40?

It is one of those unstayed carbon spar boats, but it is the later iteration with a fractional rigged headsail. Apparently they can fly spinnakers despite the freestanding rig.

I am just curious if anyone has any experience cruising one of these downwind. Did you use a spinnaker, or the "camberspar" jib or ???

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/freedom-4040

 

[eliboat]

My dad chartered one once and hated it.  Wish I could be more helpful, but all I remember is that he thought it sailed like shit.   I always have my eyes open for cat ketch  Freedom 40’s though.  

 

[mckenzie.keith]

My dad chartered one once and hated it.  Wish I could be more helpful, but all I remember is that he thought it sailed like shit.   I always have my eyes open for cat ketch  Freedom 40’s though.  

I like the look of the cat ketches, but the newer ones like the 40/40 apparently sail much better.

 

[Veeger]

I chartered a 30 or 35 Freedom years ago.  Loved the ability to run deep downwind without chafing the main on shrouds.  Hated what the pocketed camber spar in the jib did to the headstay, but I guess it was more my problem than any flaw.  The biggest annoyance was trying to maneuver in a marina during a strong wind.  The mast with its windage so significant and so far forward made things extremely difficult getting into a crosswind slip.  Needed to have strong bow thruster I think…

 

[DDW]

I am just curious if anyone has any experience cruising one of these downwind. Did you use a spinnaker, or the "camberspar" jib or ???

Can't answer your specific question but: an unstayed mast rig with a large mainsail is far more efficient and practical downwind than a marconi sloop. If you sail sloops, you are used to a small main, way oversheeted to keep if off the shrouds and minimize chafe and a very inefficient sail - not an issue on these boats. 

I did test sail a 28' Freedom with the camber spar, it seemed like the jib wasn't doing all that much. And when we got passed as though we were anchored by a Nonsuch 30 I gave up the idea. 

One final point: the 40/40 rig with the camber spar would take better to a spinnaker than the ketches. It is hard to get enough separation between the spinnaker and forward sail on the ketch, spinnaker tends to get blanketed. Even on my boat with a 10' carbon sprit it takes particular conditions to make it worthwhile (light wind broad reach). On the 40/40, proportions are more like a fractional sloop and you'd have much more separation. 

 

[Veeger]

I will say that my experience with the Freedom completely cemented my desire for a free standing cat rig on my   next boat  sail  boat...

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Can't answer your specific question but: an unstayed mast rig with a large mainsail is far more efficient and practical downwind than a marconi sloop. If you sail sloops, you are used to a small main, way oversheeted to keep if off the shrouds and minimize chafe and a very inefficient sail - not an issue on these boats. 

I did test sail a 28' Freedom with the camber spar, it seemed like the jib wasn't doing all that much. And when we got passed as though we were anchored by a Nonsuch 30 I gave up the idea. 

One final point: the 40/40 rig with the camber spar would take better to a spinnaker than the ketches. It is hard to get enough separation between the spinnaker and forward sail on the ketch, spinnaker tends to get blanketed. Even on my boat with a 10' carbon sprit it takes particular conditions to make it worthwhile (light wind broad reach). On the 40/40, proportions are more like a fractional sloop and you'd have much more separation. 

Is that a photo of your boat? I love the look of it! Also appreciate your thoughts on the original question.

 

[DDW]

Yeah that's the boat. We were trying to keep everything flying in about 3 for pictures so sail trim isn't exactly right.

 

[Oceanconcepts]

Yeah that's the boat. We were trying to keep everything flying in about 3 for pictures so sail trim isn't exactly right.

I am completely in awe of how much innovation and insight you have put into Anomaly. I’ve been intrigued by cat ketches since briefly sailing a Freedom 44 back in the 80’s., but you took it to a whole new level.

 

[Laurent]

DDW, I have some questions on the inverted vang (or gnav, as I have seen it called) on your main mast. I will PM you.

Thanks!

 

[DDW]

I am completely in awe of how much innovation and insight you have put into Anomaly. I’ve been intrigued by cat ketches since briefly sailing a Freedom 44 back in the 80’s., but you took it to a whole new level.

Thanks - it was a bit of an experiment, but I think I have proven that a cat boat can be as fast as a sloop upwind - we should have known this from development class work, but it hadn't been demonstrated at this size to my knowledge. Off the wind there isn't really a contest with white sails, nearly obviating the need for colored sails. When the colored sails do come out it is simply a question of Who's is Biggest.

 

[DDW]

DDW, I have some questions on the inverted vang (or gnav, as I have seen it called) on your main mast. I will PM you.

Thanks!

I've sent you an email to keep from hijacking the thread further.

 

[MauiPunter]

Paging @ryley   I believe he owns one of these.

 

[ryley]

Paging @ryley   I believe he owns one of these.

I have the Freedom 45, a Mull design. the 40/40 is a Pedrick design like the Freedom 35. The 40/40 should be a slightly better performer than mine, but they are pretty similar boats. the biggest performance hit on my boat is the wing keel and shoal draft. The 40/40 as I recall has a fin keel and deeper draft.

Anyone who says they sail like shit hasn't spent the time to figure them out - I got 2nd in my class overall in the B1-2 this year so they can definitely go.

As to spinnakers, they can fly them with the caveat that they need to be pretty small and you need to add checkstays to the mast or risk breaking them. I have one for my boat, and it only works in a very narrow range. It's better for me, usually, to just go wing on wing with the camberspar and sail deep. gybing that big main can be a little perilous until you understand the right way to do it.

Both the 40/40 and the 45 are well built boats, sail well enough for cruisers, and are super easy to handle.

 

[DDW]

It's better for me, usually, to just go wing on wing with the camberspar and sail deep. gybing that big main can be a little perilous until you understand the right way to do it.

After sailing an unstayed rig for a little while, you begin to realize that the penchant for heading up to get a hotter angle has a lot to do with getting the sloop rig to work again. From around 60 deg AWA to DDW, a sloop rig is a very inefficient rig.  If you can square all your sails DDW as you can on these sorts of boats, there is less value in gybing downwind. 

I can sail wing and wing with the asym, but it requires a LOT of attention to keep everything driving. A symmetric on a pole would no doubt work better DDW. Or a tacking sprit.

 

[Bbarnewolt]

I sailed a 40/40 over 20 years ago in the BVI which eventually led to my purchase of a Freedom 36/38 which I've had for 19 years. Downwind, the camberspar and large main allow easy wing-on-wing sailing and good downwind performance.  There are some like-sized boats that can pass me in Buzzzrd's Bay going upwind, but not many and fewer still by people sailing single handed which these boats do so well. I have a small spinnaker that I rarely fly. I really liked the layout of the 40/40 with the separate shower but am happy with my 36/38. Completely agree with ryley's comments above.

 

[Bob Perry]

I sailed one when they first came out. I was impressed with the performance.

 

[MFH125]

If you can square all your sails DDW as you can on these sorts of boats, there is less value in gybing downwind. 

@DDW do you find any practical benefit in letting the main out past square and trying to get some lift when going downwind?

 

[DDW]

I have not found any benefit to oversquare, but I'll admit to not testing that rigorously. The main on my boat (with rotating mast) will go all the way forward, 180 deg. And around I suppose though you start winding up lines and wiring. 

I do let it out maybe 150 deg or so to reef downwind, which works a treat. Head up from DDW just a little to get the sail luffing, reef, then sheet in and drive off again. 

It does look a little peculiar....