Jethrow
Super Anarchist
I believe they took an internal vote and everyone polled said they're doing a bang up job!
Australian Sailing
- Thread starter Commodore Captain
- Start date
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
Ok, the above was a tad harsh.
In NSW (and other states like TAS, but not states which still have a MYA), as explained to me by our very helpful NSW regional manager.
- clubs have a weighted number of votes to appoint members to their state advisory committee (2 year terms, annual elections). Vote weight is based on your club band.
- the chair for the state advisory committee is that state's delegate to AS, effectively the 'voting member' in AS parlance.
see the charter at https://www.sailing.org.au/nsw/
ie: if you're concerned about voting rights in AS, get your club more involved and appoint people you think will represent you to the state advisory committee.
Livia
Super Anarchist
But they are not a voting member are they.
so just more bullshit.
Just read that charter, it just makes it worse.
Compare the Charter to the Constitution
so just more bullshit.
Just read that charter, it just makes it worse.
Compare the Charter to the Constitution
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
who are 'they' that you are referring to. Clubs?
No - they're not direct voting members in AS. They have a single state delegate who is the voting member in AS.
The system is unrepresentative of the sailing fraternity....what we see is administrators appointed to represent administrators....and they will never rock the boat. Club and race admin is now a "profession" with the qualifications created and recognised by AS...so these people will not bite the hand that feeds...PRO? Coach? Race admin?....these people have (and I'm slightly overstating it) snouts in the trough...and clubs think it's a good thing to have "their rep" on the board...
Sailors are missing from the equation...and what we need is an open vote by each paid up club member.
"No taxation (AS fee) without representation" is a valid position. Don't demand a fee from me without giving me a say in AS policy...and maybe then AS will start to focus on "Value Delivery" to the grass-roots. Right now they can just ignore us...and the do!
Sailors are missing from the equation...and what we need is an open vote by each paid up club member.
"No taxation (AS fee) without representation" is a valid position. Don't demand a fee from me without giving me a say in AS policy...and maybe then AS will start to focus on "Value Delivery" to the grass-roots. Right now they can just ignore us...and the do!
Jethrow
Super Anarchist
Yeah. I think I have to agree with you there, it does seem this way...
Livia
Super Anarchist
Either the clubs or the members of the advisory committee or the committee itself are not voting members
Just one club is a voting which appointed by the existing voting members of AS.
and that member cannot act at the dictate of the advisory committee.
It is some of the most dishonest governance you can ever come across.
Compare the AS Constitution with the NSW Charter.
Try to read those documents together.
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Fah Kiew Tu
Curmudgeon, First Rank
Sounds like it was carefully thought through to render the organisation totally immune to complaints.
So, since it's not actually compulsory to play - don't. And complain to the various MP's about how unrepresentative AS actually is.
There's a local club I'd join basically just to give them my membership fee, but as I suspect some of it would go to AS and I'm not giving them a cent, I stay as a sailboat owner without any club membership.
Incidentally we should finally be off the hard on Friday. Boat has gotten a bunch of upgrades and the topsides etc repainted. I'd have liked to do the deck too but the weather hasn't been cooperative, as per fucking usual in southern Tasmania. But at least my powered main halyard winch is all installed and working. As I get older I definitely get lazier.
FKT
Livia
Super Anarchist
FKT
Down in the 1st, hopefully boat leaving about 7th.
Still out on the attenuator
L
Down in the 1st, hopefully boat leaving about 7th.
Still out on the attenuator
L
Did he mention how the weight is allocated based on club band? Does a big band 1 club get 22 votes and a little band 22 club one vote, or are they relative to fees paid, or what? If it's the latter the top two clubs get as many votes as the bottom 80 or so, and clubs like CSC or SASC get 1/5 or 1/6 as many votes as the CYCA does.
In some ways it's fair if the individual members effectively each get a voice, but the problem is that small clubs effectively have no voice, no matter how involved they try to be - and no matter how many kids they bring into the sport.
Under the old scheme, clubs like Chaffey Dam SC and Wallerawang SC had representation at YA NSW through their Zones. The most successful club in NSW in terms of getting bums on boats in races, per capita, is Lake Jindabayne SC but these days clubs like that would have basically zero representation - there is no longer a zone system and their membership is too small to really count.
Looking at numbers it's hard to see that the sport was well managed. I see that one club that is right at the top of the list in terms of putting kids through Discover Sailing and other courses got over 1000 people through courses last year and has about 30 active members of the junior/youth fleets.
Another club put 700 people through courses and has about 8 youth actively racing. Given that many of the active racers would have learned in earlier years, it looks as if the courses have something like 1% conversion rate. Are the 99% now just ambivelent towards sailing or is it now actually crossed off their list because they didn't like it? If it's the latter, the idea of whacking kids through courses would actually be turning many people off the sport.
Back in the early '80s NSW had 40,702 members, although that included the 10,000 members of the big skiff clubs who were mainly social. Now NSW has 18,000 club members (although that can't include the skiffy social members any more) and the population has come close to doubling, so per capita membership is down to about a quarter of what it was. Australian Sailing certainly has no right to keep on congratulating itself on its promotion and management since it is clearly doing something very wrong.
Incidentally looking at the old club record confirms that a significantly higher proportion of sailors these days are kids, which just underlines how silly it is to panic about the youth classes and blame the ills of the sport on them. The drop-out of teens and young adults is actually much LESS in sailing, proportionately, than in most sports as shown by Victorian statistics. And yet AS continues to act as if the existing youth classes are the problem and retention will be fixed by promoting far more expensive craft.
PS - Looking at the AS site I note that one person nominated for a management award is from a club that has about twice as many employees as sailors. The individual may be great and they may be fixing the situation, but given the vast amount of cash that club has it seems odd that they're getting recognised for promoting the sport when they only had about 57 active sailors last year.
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
yes - that is quite clear in the NSW charter.
If you crunch the numbers, there are a total of 333 votes. 77 of the smallest clubs hold more votes than the top 25 clubs.
I think it is quite unfair to say the regional committee is stacked with administrators. Have a look at the people on it before you throw stones.
And as I'm sure I've said before - don't like the system, then be active at your club to get someone on your regional committee in the next round. They're not flooded with applicants!
In no way am I criticising the current Regional Reps - I know (and respect) some of them and actually by coincidence rang one of them between my post and your reply - and I didn't say the regional committee was stacked with administrators.
The issue is that in the past, there was a different form of regional representation, which gave geographical regions a representative that, as far as I know, gave better representation to the governing body (YA NSW) than an advisory committee now does to the body that governs the whole country (AS). Now there is just one representative from a smaller country club in NSW, and all he can do is give advice to a national body.
I've got a history of running national classes, club fleets and clubs, and I've been on committees at international level. I'm currently running a club and an inter-club committee (which since I took over has gone from the situation where we were not allowed any new members and were going to have our buildings bulldozed, to now being officially encouraged and provided with two new clubhouses etc) so I count as extremely active, but because of previous experience with AS I don't think that being on an advisory committee chaired by a marine industry pro from a big club will give any real voice. The multi-class association I was on was regularly ignored or over-ruled by YA NSW and AS so I don't see that a purely advisory role would carry much weight, especially when even the Regional Committee reps have to filter their views through a single rep at national level, who is themselves merely talking to professional administrators.
Thanks for the lead on the Charter. I see that the Regional Committee is only supposed to have six members, which as far as I can see gives no room to represent the whole width of the sport both in disciplines or regionally.
Secondly, the system is completely undemocratic because "All nominations will be reviewed by the Committee who will either ratify or reject a nomination at its discretion" and therefore the Committee may keep control of those on it. Finally, the big clubs have the vast mass of votes so they still essentially control the result. That's democratic in some ways but some sort of balance would be nice to see. The lack of representation of disciplines and class associations has also always puzzled me.
The system does not look like something that is designed to give proper representation to the constituents. I have craft from a very wide bunch of disciplines, from the biggest classes to perhaps the smallest (in both membership and craft size), I'm regularly a member of two clubs, and yet there's no way that any organisation of which I am a member can effectively represent my interests (by which I really mean the interests of a typical grass roots member) to those running the sport.
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duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
sorry - that wasn't directed at you. It was targeted at others in this thread.
(p)Irate
Super Anarchist
Unfortunately the "no taxation without representation" argument doesn't hold up. We as individual sailors do not pay a fee to AS, we pay a fee to a club. The days when a defined sum per member went to AS ended when the Silver Card disappeared. With the banding system the clubs are charged a set banding fee by AS that has no direct connection to the number of members it has. So according to AS we, as sailors have paid nothing to them so why would they even consider giving us a voice, let alone listening to it? The clubs are the only members of AS, and the only ones who pay for the privilege. AS grudgingly has to listen to the clubs but as can be seen from the posts above, have put into practice policies such that they limit even the voices of the clubs. Meanwhile we as individual sailors are bound by the laws imposed by AS without having any direct voice or even an effective indirect voice via our club.
The reality is that the fee to AS used to be called out in the annual club membership.....now it's absorbed in the club fee...either way the member pays...and AS has conveniently avoided calling attention to the billing, thereby stopping the provoking of members to question "what do I get for this fee?"
So....on the basis you've correctly outlined (p)irate...AS is not a peak body of sailing representing the interests of sailors...it is an administrative service to yacht clubs...for which clubs pay a tribute.
Is that what the AS constitution says it's supposed to be?
So....on the basis you've correctly outlined (p)irate...AS is not a peak body of sailing representing the interests of sailors...it is an administrative service to yacht clubs...for which clubs pay a tribute.
Is that what the AS constitution says it's supposed to be?
The Main Man
Super Anarchist
Well, in the UK….sailing. Don’t know if it’s still the same as I haven’t raced in a few years but the only time in about 15 years that I, as crew, had to be a member of a club or the RYA to race was when we were qualifying and competing in the Comedy (Commodore’s) Cup.
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
Just be glad AS aren't Netball Australia
AS would take sponsorship from anyone!
Dear Gina, sponsorship money burning a hole in your pocket? On behalf of all rich white yacht owners across Australia, may I say that we would be more than willing to help you out and we would never think of embarrassing you by bringing up comments made by your father so many years ago (except in off-color (no pun intended) jokes at the yacht club of course).
