Australian Skiffs

[SimonN]

The skiff club traditions in Australia once had kids growing up with dreams of becoming stars of classes raced locally and nationally. Kids were exposed weekly to the pathways with their idols offering wisdom and the ‘odd’ well done for a good result. Any aspirations were seen as achievable to a much wider band than today. Yesterdays kids would dump school at any chance to go sailing. They would rig their own lightweight boats and spend an afternoon on the water planing and having fun. All without a helicopter parent or coach in RIBs confusing the natural boat handling process. Kids use to go sailing for fun in exciting boats and look forward to going fast in the sun. School was for being lectured and coached (bored). 
 

Then someone thought kids should be aiming for medals and to be international champions with mind numbing boats preferred/pushed over the Sabots, MJs, Flying Ants, Flying 11s, Cherubs etc as THE avenue to success or acceptance. 
So where did the push come from?
YA/Sailing Australia in trying to bleed funds they felt due from successful skiff and dinghy clubs across the country through promoting an Olympic dream?

or 
Parents believing that pushed dream of future champion and removing a large slice of the fun that used to be kids sailing to satisfy their own ego or failings.

The traditional entry classes in Australia exposed many Olympic and International Champions to the enjoyment of the sport at junior level. They didn’t have over coaching by the fun police at junior levels, yet once hooked went on to pursue their dreams on their terms.

A by product of wanting to have fun and go fast may have restricted skills for some in light airs but being a duck pond champion is not for everyone…

You reflect longingly on a past that cannot happen today. Gone are the days of dumping school. Gone are the days of kids launching from a club without proper rescue support. Gone are the days when you didn't have to consider that you were competing against sports like NRL and AFL for junior participation. 35 years ago, you got into footie kicking a ball around the local park, just like you could get into sailing the way you say. Now, junior participation is footie is a big business, well organised and highly targeted effort. All sports have needed to adapt or die and sailing has been left behind to a large extent. Parents are demanding sports that are organised, offer quality coaching and care for their children when they are participating and they expect clearly defined pathways to adult sports participation with the option of developing to the highest level of the sport if their child has aptitude. It is very clear that the sports that do not meet that expectation are attracting less junior participation. Sailing struggles against the sports like AFL, NRL tennis and more because they do not have big revenues from professional levels that feed down to grass roots junior participation so more than ever, sailing needs to find ways to compete with those sports and that means junior levels being highly organised. There is also a need to have cheap, ready made and off the shelf "equipment" to get the youngsters started, which is why the Optimist remains such an obvious starting point.

The Optimist is such a good starting point because you can and should put a kid in one and with almost no instruction, they can be pushed out sailing to discover what happens and how it works by trial and error, which is the heart of any good Optimist beginner program. And from there you have options, such as described above (Hunters Hill SC?) or a more formal route via the pathway.

 

[bat]

I think you’ve pretty much answered my base question and made clear where the push comes from…parents. Back when kids had fun it was them getting parents out of bed to get them down to the water. Nowadays a programme of deep winter coaching to be that next ‘medalist’ sees who getting who out of bed?

Thankfully the fun ethic still survives with the MJ and Flying 11 fleets. Wider skill sets in without over coaching with reachable progression as opposed to keeping overgrown kids in shoeboxes for the next big event in their mapped out career.

If kids have fun and enjoy the experience, without any goal pressures, they will stick with the sport for life as has been the Australian way. No surprise to see many that were overcoached or who had unrealistic expectations not return. 

A simplistic old school view, but one that those who grew up in Australia sailing fun dinghies may appreciate. Much of that model still realistic until you put a tunnel visioned SA and goal seeking parents in the mix. God knows every kid needs to race an international class at 10 years of age…

 

[[email protected]]

The Sabots seemed to develop a few good sailors too: Wangi Nationals about 1995. Another class killed off baby the YA Oppi mania.

View attachment 498753 View attachment 498754

A few familiar names and boats from Tassie. Bringing back memories - though I have to admit I was happy at the tail of the fleet in those days, it wasn't until I started crewing a 1/4 tonner with a competitive skipper I begun to understand the drive to win... actually 95 was about when I left Sabots.

 

[Phil S]

There have been some very significant changes in Australian small boat sailing over the last 50 years. Not just in the admin but in the whole landscape.

There used to be compact sailing clubs run by volunteers in most bays and waterside suburbs/towns where fleets of boats were stored. Locals could walk or bike ride to the clubs, or even get there on public transport, very few boats were on trailers. Almost all boats were owned by families not clubs.

But city real estate has blown out. Clubs have vanished as rental fees and insurance costs grew, and volunteers grew old and ran out of enthusiasm. Boats also got more complex, more expensive and bigger, meaning they did not fit into the clubhouses or were too precious to leave in a wet shed.

The consequence is that we now have a few successful big commercial clubs, usually supported by gambling or a good restaurant, and as well as some surviving volunteer run smaller clubs. But even the numbers of commercial clubs is shrinking. Few clubs now have storage space for more than a few junior boats.

I am in NSW so that's were my observations are based. The overseas followers will mostly see the activity in just three clubs: Double Bay 18fters, plus Belmont and Manly 16fters. These are the most succesful business wise and proves the best support to the sailors in funding the boats and the video coverage. 

Almost all other clubs struggle to get viable fleets in more than one class. There are exceptions, but its common for clubs to have one good fleet of near 20 boats and sometime several small fleets of under 6 boats. The good fleets are often an amalgamation of almost all the boats of an old class where cheap boats are readily available. This means that class gets sailed in just the one club. The exception class appearing in many venues is the laser because there are just so many available cheaply.

The reality is that Australian "skiff" racing is not that healthy. In Sydney there are no fleets of 49ers or I14s, only about 15 12fter spread over 3 clubs, maybe 30 MG14s in  2 clubs, a scattering of 29ers over several clubs, maybe 6 B14s in one club, 10 Skates in one club. Non skiff classes with some numbers in club pockets would be Herons, Mirrors, NS14s, Spirals, Impulses, Tasers, even Moths have shrunk to less than 10 spread over three cubs. (there are almost as many nostalgia scow moths sailing now as there are foilers.)  There are lots of other classes represented by one or two boats here and there.

The Junior classes doing well are Opis and Flying 11s in many clubs, MJs are mostly Manly, Sabots survive in some areas, plus juniors are racing bigger boats like Herons, Mirrors, Laser 4.7s etc. Almost all clubs have some sort of junior program, some more popular than others. There is an increased trend for club owned Opis which can be stored in what small spaces are still available.

Sailing Australia list about 50 off the beach classes. Most I have not seen around Sydney, so maybe other cities have different circumstances. I have not included catamarans here. I think there are only 3 clubs in Sydney racing cats now. I do not know anything about fleet numbers.  Of course there are many clubs racing ballasted boats/yachts both big and small. Counting crew numbers these make up the majority of sailing activity in Sydney.

Sailing Australia is mostly funded by government and olympic funding. So most of its expeniture goes towards Olympic classes, aspiration, and the "pathway".  The rest of us get some support with class admin, rules and government liaison, but little money. That's the modern commercial world we live in.
 

 

[Rambler]

There have been some very significant changes in Australian small boat sailing over the last 50 years. Not just in the admin but in the whole landscape.

There used to be compact sailing clubs run by volunteers in most bays and waterside suburbs/towns where fleets of boats were stored. Locals could walk or bike ride to the clubs, or even get there on public transport, very few boats were on trailers. Almost all boats were owned by families not clubs.

But city real estate has blown out. Clubs have vanished as rental fees and insurance costs grew, and volunteers grew old and ran out of enthusiasm. Boats also got more complex, more expensive and bigger, meaning they did not fit into the clubhouses or were too precious to leave in a wet shed.

The consequence is that we now have a few successful big commercial clubs, usually supported by gambling or a good restaurant, and as well as some surviving volunteer run smaller clubs. But even the numbers of commercial clubs is shrinking. Few clubs now have storage space for more than a few junior boats.

I am in NSW so that's were my observations are based. The overseas followers will mostly see the activity in just three clubs: Double Bay 18fters, plus Belmont and Manly 16fters. These are the most succesful business wise and proves the best support to the sailors in funding the boats and the video coverage. 

Almost all other clubs struggle to get viable fleets in more than one class. There are exceptions, but its common for clubs to have one good fleet of near 20 boats and sometime several small fleets of under 6 boats. The good fleets are often an amalgamation of almost all the boats of an old class where cheap boats are readily available. This means that class gets sailed in just the one club. The exception class appearing in many venues is the laser because there are just so many available cheaply.

The reality is that Australian "skiff" racing is not that healthy. In Sydney there are no fleets of 49ers or I14s, only about 15 12fter spread over 3 clubs, maybe 30 MG14s in  2 clubs, a scattering of 29ers over several clubs, maybe 6 B14s in one club, 10 Skates in one club. Non skiff classes with some numbers in club pockets would be Herons, Mirrors, NS14s, Spirals, Impulses, Tasers, even Moths have shrunk to less than 10 spread over three cubs. (there are almost as many nostalgia scow moths sailing now as there are foilers.)  There are lots of other classes represented by one or two boats here and there.

The Junior classes doing well are Opis and Flying 11s in many clubs, MJs are mostly Manly, Sabots survive in some areas, plus juniors are racing bigger boats like Herons, Mirrors, Laser 4.7s etc. Almost all clubs have some sort of junior program, some more popular than others. There is an increased trend for club owned Opis which can be stored in what small spaces are still available.

Sailing Australia list about 50 off the beach classes. Most I have not seen around Sydney, so maybe other cities have different circumstances. I have not included catamarans here. I think there are only 3 clubs in Sydney racing cats now. I do not know anything about fleet numbers.  Of course there are many clubs racing ballasted boats/yachts both big and small. Counting crew numbers these make up the majority of sailing activity in Sydney.

Sailing Australia is mostly funded by government and olympic funding. So most of its expeniture goes towards Olympic classes, aspiration, and the "pathway".  The rest of us get some support with class admin, rules and government liaison, but little money. That's the modern commercial world we live in.
 

I agree with most of what you say (lamentable though it is), except for clubs actually disappearing.

I'm not aware of any (well maybe one or two on Lake Macquarie) that have actually disappeared.

Many will have only one strong fleet; but I'm not sure that's much different from 30 years ago.

I grew up in the Eastern Suburbs as as far as I can see, all the many dinghy clubs that were there then (and all the clubs we went to regattas at on Sydney Harbour and the Parramatta River), are still there and going strong enough.

But the skiff numbers are not what they were and I do wonder how much of that is due to the perverse Opy influence.

 

[Rambler]

Not to get too caught up on hating on the Opy, let's look at another skiff class - the 13Ft skiff

It has an interesting history, being introduced as a 'competitor' to the 29er in, shall we say, somewhat political circumstances.

Adopted as the 'official' training boat for the 16ft skiff clubs, it initially took off, but seems to have faded and contracted somewhat back to its Manly base.

part of the problem may be the maximum age limitations placed on the boat; nominally to ensure participants move onto the 16ft skiff.

I do like th masthead kite. the 29er lacks power somewhat sailing downwind against a river tide.

 

[Phil S]

13s are a Manly only class. Not many at the recent Belmont Nationals.

Vanished dinghy clubs, quick list: Western Suburbs (Concord), River club (Gladesville) and Greenwich FS (both now yacht clubs), Snails Bay (Balmain), Seaforth Moth club (shed owned by Northbridge), Botany Bay cat Club (merged with Kurnell), Sans Souci herons and MGs, Kyle bay, Port Hacking Open Sc. Penrith SC. StGeorge went broke and was bought out by Manly. Georges River is looking like going broke too.  Not all has any clubhouse. But many others have smaller sheds now.

Woollahra is still one of the biggest dinghy clubs but survives by renting half its space to the paddle boards, kayaks, sailing school and sea plane people.

 

[jackattack]

So, just to clarify a couple of things listed above about the 13ft Skiffs

• They are currently sailed regularly at 3 clubs - Manly 16ft Skiff Sailing Club, Middle Harbour 16ft Skiff Sailing Club, and Illawarra Yacht Club. There are also boats in Qld although not regularly sailing and a couple of boats have been registered recently at Hornsby-Kuringai Sailing Club but not sure if they have been sailing regularly
  
• They were never designed as a competitor to the 29er, they were designed purely to be a feeder class to the 16s. It was more about the class objectives rather than the actual design of the boat itself or goals of world domination.
  
• The age limits on the 13ft skiff were recently increased by the association. The limits are now 26 for males and 30 for females. 
  
• At the recent Australian 16ft & 13ft Championships at Belmont, there were 9 13ft skiffs entered and 49 16ft Skiffs
  

Ideally the 13ft Skiff numbers at the moment should be around the 15-18 boats at a nationals to be a strong feeder class for the 16. They race on the same course as the 16s so any more than that would probably require separate courses. When you race them on a separate course you start to lose some of the familiarity with the senior class (16s) which is one of the objectives. Now if the numbers did increase to that point, I'm sure it's a problem that could be overcome!

 

[jackattack]

13s are a Manly only class. Not many at the recent Belmont Nationals.

Vanished dinghy clubs, quick list: Western Suburbs (Concord), River club (Gladesville) and Greenwich FS (both now yacht clubs), Snails Bay (Balmain), Seaforth Moth club (shed owned by Northbridge), Botany Bay cat Club (merged with Kurnell), Sans Souci herons and MGs, Kyle bay, Port Hacking Open Sc. Penrith SC. StGeorge went broke and was bought out by Manly. Georges River is looking like going broke too.  Not all has any clubhouse. But many others have smaller sheds now.

Woollahra is still one of the biggest dinghy clubs but survives by renting half its space to the paddle boards, kayaks, sailing school and sea plane people.

Port Hacking Open Sailing Club is still sailing NS14s and Herons regularly 

 

[SimonN]

It's not just sailing that is changing. It's all sports, so sailing cannot stand still and we cannot go back to "the good old days". I think there is an argument to say that the biggest problem is that sailing isn't moving away from those days fast enough to stay competitive within the sports scene. 

Take tennis in Sydney. 10 years ago, it was organised as clubs, districts, metro and then state. Juniors started at clubs and played district comps on Sunday mornings. Adults played at their clubs and played either district comps or metro wide "badge" (season long inter club comp). Finally, for the more ambitious, there were tournaments that fitted within and were sanctioned by Tennis Australia and State system, although the actual events were run by clubs and a few commercial operator. Now, commercial operators have taken over most of the tennis centres, clubs have limited time on court, the commercial operators run social tennis for non club members (for a fee) and also run tournaments. One operator that has multiple centres is now by far the biggest tournament organiser (multiple events per weekend, all held outside of club or even Tennis Australia sanction. Simply, much of tennis, including tournaments, is now in the hands of commercial operators. No need for volunteers. No need for club subscriptions. Choice of events at different locations almost any day of the week. Junior training every day after school (sometimes even before) and at weekends following a clearly laid out national pathway and curriculum which is sponsored by a major bank and which is advertised on TV. In addition, there is a lot of infrastructure and money to support grass roots tennis that comes from the profits of the Australian Open. Yes, there are arguments whether enough goes to grass roots, but sailing would love even a fraction of that money. And this is not unusual for the leading sports. I could tell a similar story for both NRL and AFL, which is one reason why Rugby Union is dying.

It is against that background that sailing is trying to compete. 

I also have to counter some of the anti Optimist comments. Fact - kids love Optimists. They are not boring and they have a strong track record around the world, including Australia, for getting kids going who become life long sailors. Some people need to be careful not to put their own prejudices into the mix. People think that fast exciting boats attract people to the sport. They do not. They put people off. Australia needs more classes like the Herons or at least the modern equivalent - easy to sail, family orientated and not so fast as to scare newbies. This is one of the great strengths of the UK scene and the lesson learnt over the last 30 years. The hugely popular and best selling classes are not the high performance boats, even when competitively priced. High performance boats have a very narrow demographic, have a high turnover of people sailing them and when people stop sailing them they tend to leave the sport.

 

[Rambler]

I also have to counter some of the anti Optimist comments. Fact - kids love Optimists. They are not boring and they have a strong track record around the world, including Australia, for getting kids going who become life long sailors. Some people need to be careful not to put their own prejudices into the mix. People think that fast exciting boats attract people to the sport. They do not. They put people off. Australia needs more classes like the Herons or at least the modern equivalent - easy to sail, family orientated and not so fast as to scare newbies. This is one of the great strengths of the UK scene and the lesson learnt over the last 30 years. The hugely popular and best selling classes are not the high performance boats, even when competitively priced. High performance boats have a very narrow demographic, have a high turnover of people sailing them and when people stop sailing them they tend to leave the sport.

The greter part of the prejudice is the toxic environment that often accompanies them.

Over pushy parents, over serious coaching and all to often, something of a cannon fodder approach to he participants.

As some have said, it's different if they merely spend one year in them.

Having said that, there are serious limitations to the boats themselves which belong in a different forum. They, and the way they are taught, cater to one style of child. Others, of a more nervous disposition or who are more comfortable sailing with a friend or merely playing a crew role. Bad luck.

 

[Rambler]

• They were never designed as a competitor to the 29er, they were designed purely to be a feeder class to the 16s. It was more about the class objectives rather than the actual design of the boat itself or goals of world domination.
  

Having been around and knowing the personalities and situation when and where they were developed, I'd suggest this is a nice cover for the real reason.

The expression 'we get to chose our own sail-maker', might provide some clue

 

[Rambler]

Now, commercial operators have taken over most of the tennis centres, clubs have limited time on court, the commercial operators run social tennis for non club members (for a fee) and also run tournaments. One operator that has multiple centres is now by far the biggest tournament organiser (multiple events per weekend, all held outside of club or even Tennis Australia sanction. Simply, much of tennis, including tournaments, is now in the hands of commercial operators. No need for volunteers. No need for club subscriptions. Choice of events at different locations almost any day of the week. Junior training every day after school (sometimes even before) and at weekends following a clearly laid out national pathway and curriculum which is sponsored by a major bank and which is advertised on TV. In addition, there is a lot of infrastructure and money to support grass roots tennis that comes from the profits of the Australian Open. Yes, there are arguments whether enough goes to grass roots, but sailing would love even a fraction of that money.

You make it sound like a good thing.

Perhaps you can see why in the AS thread, they get accused of actually destroying the clubs that they are meant to be answerable to.

Where's the money going?

if it's just to pay coaches and administrators, no, sailing doesn't want any fraction of that money.

To buy a fleet of skiffs?

Maybe, but we know that's not going to be the case.

In the end professional coaches have two objective;

• Earn a living
  
• Make the most skilled and successful sailors they can to boost the first objective.
  

Supporting clubs (in most cases) is not part of that.

Supporting kids (and adults) having fun and a good social scene or regular sailing friends is not part of that either.

It might surprise you to know an good percentage of sailors think that very important

 

[JulianB]

So, just to clarify a couple of things listed above about the 13ft Skiffs

• They are currently sailed regularly at 3 clubs - Manly 16ft Skiff Sailing Club, Middle Harbour 16ft Skiff Sailing Club, and Illawarra Yacht Club. There are also boats in Qld although not regularly sailing and a couple of boats have been registered recently at Hornsby-Kuringai Sailing Club but not sure if they have been sailing regularly
  
• They were never designed as a competitor to the 29er, they were designed purely to be a feeder class to the 16s. It was more about the class objectives rather than the actual design of the boat itself or goals of world domination.
  
• The age limits on the 13ft skiff were recently increased by the association. The limits are now 26 for males and 30 for females. 
  
• At the recent Australian 16ft & 13ft Championships at Belmont, there were 9 13ft skiffs entered and 49 16ft Skiffs
  

Ideally the 13ft Skiff numbers at the moment should be around the 15-18 boats at a nationals to be a strong feeder class for the 16. They race on the same course as the 16s so any more than that would probably require separate courses. When you race them on a separate course you start to lose some of the familiarity with the senior class (16s) which is one of the objectives. Now if the numbers did increase to that point, I'm sure it's a problem that could be overcome!

Jackattack, I do remember a very blunt and burtal conversation re 29er vs 13ft skiff and it has left me in absoulty no doubt that the 13ft skiff was set up as a competitor to the 29er.   I was going to sweep all (inc the 29er) before it into submission.

That's a fact, you can chose to disregard it if you wish!   We are presently building a 29er a day (working day) so like I had to, you have to re-think your target audiuence.

Great boat (the 13ft skiff) for years we tried to help with things like spin poles and forestay fitting and plastic track and and and.

And I have little doubt it has evolved into something that it was never intended to be, which is also the case of the 29er, that's life!

But it's birth was to take on the 29er (because we had single source sails, that's it).

 

[bat]

. People think that fast exciting boats attract people to the sport. They do not. They put people off. Australia needs more classes like the Herons or at least the modern equivalent - easy to sail, family orientated and not so fast as to scare newbies. This is one of the great strengths of the UK scene and the lesson learnt over the last 30 years. The hugely popular and best selling classes are not the high performance boats, even when competitively priced. High performance boats have a very narrow demographic, have a high turnover of people sailing them and when people stop sailing them they tend to leave the sport.

Did someone mention be careful about own predjudices? Mate, it is also quite true that kids love of sailing fast boats, (I.e. ones they could easily lift without aid of a launching trolly) is what not only attracted them, but kept them in the sport and trained them perfectly to progress into and up to more exciting boats. Many never left or walked away. Some chose other paths and went on to win or compete in Admirals Cups, Volvo races, Americas Cups, Skiff Championships and even Olympic medals. Some went on to be administrators and I can think of one doing very well in your homeland. All without having to follow the precious only the Opti will do option. It could be worth wiping the rose coloured glasses of the success of UKs sailing model before putting the boot into sailing in Australia and what it has achieved and offered from its past with a fraction of the UKs population (or government funding at higher levels). The Opti might well work, but it is no better than the Sabot or other trainers that here that were shoved to the side (dumped) to suit a narrow vision that only took in medals. There is far more to the sport than medals and Olympic pathways that I think most with any history in the sport understand. Sadly those that run it do not.

The Aus model in many ways was no different to that in NZ with P class in the place of Sabots but the same linage of fast junior dinghies. I’m not sure I’d suggest that training was an area where they fell behind over the years considering how high they as a Nation have punched above their weight over so many years.

 

[MelbourneA31]

The Sabots seemed to develop a few good sailors too: Wangi Nationals about 1995. Another class killed off baby the YA Oppi mania.

View attachment 498753 View attachment 498754

Sabot parents willing to pay exorbitant prices for special boats killed off the Sabot class, not AS. A coach that I know says that the focus on junior sailing needs to be on the performance of the sailor, not the technology in building the boat.

 

[martin 'hoff]

You reflect longingly on a past that cannot happen today. Gone are the days of dumping school. Gone are the days of kids launching from a club without proper rescue support. Gone are the days...

Also gone are the days when staying at home was boring. Sports today compete with Fortnite.

And some kids love the Opti, others want something faster, and yet others are social and thrive on double handed boats.

And overeager parents and coaches bring toxicity. But keep in mind: if something else was dominant in kids racing the toxic adults would be right there where the action is so it's the success, not the boat that attracts them.

Anyway. I'm all for a range of boats for kids. Spread the spectrum.

 

[JimC]

To my mind the biggest issue is high profile events. The kids at my club, they get to 18, they've done the biggest fleet Nationals they're ever going to, they've done world champs in another continent, what is there to aspire to (OK, yes, one of them did do the Olympics, but that's inevitably an outlier). If there were no more than local events for the U16s, and no more than regional events for the U18s, not Nationals, no Worlds, would that take some of the high pressure parent out and get a bit more fun back in?

 

[Daniel Holman]

Exactly Jim, if all youve known in your teens is racing around windward leewards with coach boats in 100 boat OD fleets then its like you've been raised on a rarefied diet of filet steak, then you aren't going to be particularly excited by the prospect of a few sandwiches and  a packet of pickled onion monster munch. The attrition rate post 18 and then post university from sailing is collosal. 

Too many kids are railroaded into the squad sort of thing by parents with unfulfilled dreams or to keep up with Jones'. Sailing is such a big and richly varied sport, kids should be doing lots of swallows and amazons stuff or at least experiencing a good mixture of what sailing has to offer, getting into the sport in a sustainable way that they may elect to continue doing once its on their own dollar. 

 

[Dart96]

Dan H said

"getting into the sport in a sustainable way that they may elect to continue doing once its on their own dollar."

Sustainability tends to be associated with material aspects but it is just as important for the Social and Psychological side of sailing