Australian Skiffs

[Phil S]

Sabot parents willing to pay exorbitant prices for special boats killed off the Sabot class, not AS. A coach that I know says that the focus on junior sailing needs to be on the performance of the sailor, not the technology in building the boat.

Sabots costing $10000 now appear cheap compared to each 5 ring myopic opti parent spending $20000 on coach boats and huge 4WD to tow them.

 

[jackattack]

Jackattack, I do remember a very blunt and burtal conversation re 29er vs 13ft skiff and it has left me in absoulty no doubt that the 13ft skiff was set up as a competitor to the 29er.   I was going to sweep all (inc the 29er) before it into submission.

That's a fact, you can chose to disregard it if you wish!   We are presently building a 29er a day (working day) so like I had to, you have to re-think your target audiuence.

Great boat (the 13ft skiff) for years we tried to help with things like spin poles and forestay fitting and plastic track and and and.

And I have little doubt it has evolved into something that it was never intended to be, which is also the case of the 29er, that's life!

But it's birth was to take on the 29er (because we had single source sails, that's it).

Not disagreeing that some people had that view, but it wasn't the view of the association. Everyone had their opinion on the reasons for the 13ft skiff, and one thing is for certain, they weren't all the same.

 

[SimonN]

You make it sound like a good thing.

No, I don't think it is a good thing but it is reality. 

Sport for kids is now big business and it doesn't matter what what grass roots or clubs think, every sport has to be able to compete or else it will die, and it seems to me that small boat sailing is on the back foot in Australia (not actually dying). I have noticed a significant decline in the 15 years I have been in Sydney.

Looking to the glory days when parents and kids built fast lightweight boats to have fun in doesn't really help, because people stopped doing that well before the current pathways and Optimist squads came along. Except for a few people like PhilS, nobody builds their own boats any more.

I don't believe that the answers to the challenge facing sailing has anything to do with the boats we sail. We aren't seeing loads of kids trying Optimists and leaving the sport because the boats aren't exciting enough. The challenge is to get the kids to try the sport in the first place and that is where squads, coaching and pathways play a role. I am not saying that what is on offer at the moment is correct, but the "good old days" doesn't cut it any more and I suspect that the answer lies in more organised squads that are more professionally run.

 

[Phil S]

One other thing we all have forgotten so far is that with minimum club storage space available, boat owners need somewhere to store a trailer/boat. Sydney is getting more and more dense, some housing blocks do not even have parking spots, and houses are getting so big there is no yard left for outside storage. Space for trailers only occurs in older outer suburbs or specialist industrial spaces. Councils are cracking down on boats and trailers parked in streets. Its making boat ownership more difficult.

 

[Raz'r]

One other thing we all have forgotten so far is that with minimum club storage space available, boat owners need somewhere to store a trailer/boat. Sydney is getting more and more dense, some housing blocks do not even have parking spots, and houses are getting so big there is no yard left for outside storage. Space for trailers only occurs in older outer suburbs or specialist industrial spaces. Councils are cracking down on boats and trailers parked in streets. Its making boat ownership more difficult.

Same here in California

 

[Rambler]

Sabot parents willing to pay exorbitant prices for special boats killed off the Sabot class, not AS. A coach that I know says that the focus on junior sailing needs to be on the performance of the sailor, not the technology in building the boat.

Personally I think it needs to be on the kids having fun; sailing and socially.

Once you focus on the performance of the sailors, then the technology will be pushed to the limit of the rules to enhance that 'performance'. Nothing you can do to refocus it except to back off on the importance of 'performance'.

Just teach competence.

And yes Opys and Sabots for those sort of prices completely explain my contempt for their toxicity. 

 

[Rambler]

Anyway, let's refocus on the topic.

Working up the chain, we can't go past the 29er.

Now, since our good contributor to this forum, Julian Bethwaite, designed them, we can claim them as Australian, even though I understand there was a consortium around the project and they're now an International class.  After all, no-one pointed out the Cherubs came from NZ .

Having sailed one for a number of season, first with my son (and when he took up surfing), then with my (mid 40's, otherwise non sailing) wife, I'm happy to say they are the absolute most fun you can have in over 20 knots of wind.

They track beautifully, upwind and down, gybe predictibly and (I recall - as its more than a few years ago now) even tack well.

They are, as I call them, superbly dynamically stable while converying a sense of speed and excitement back to the crew.

But, he continues, a bit toungue in cheek (and expecting Julian to jump on me), going slowly on the other hand, they'll fall over without you even knowing why. So best left on the beach in much under 10 knots of wind.

Julian built in (deliberately for safety reasons as I understand) a tendency to turtle quickly. So they're best not sailed in water less than 8 meters deep as they tend to break a lot of top masts.

When I sailed them, I noticed a lot of teenagers, converting over from Flying 11 (non trapeze skiffs) capsized on every tack; probably because they assumed their crews could move across the boat as fast as they did on the F11. And then they disappeared (possibly - but not sure because they launched from surrounding clubs) because they got sick of so many capsizes. I always taught thoses converting under my influence to start on them thinking of a tack being a three phase process.

You don't put the helm over until the crew is aboard and unhooked and you don't power up until the crew is ready to go out.

You can work up to single phanse tacks soon enough. But give it time.

Their other interesting trick was to very quickly face masthead to wind after a capsize in fresh winds (even after you've brought them up from a turtle with a leeward mast).

Which, if you didn't have anything else in your armory, ended in an endless succession of violent capsizes.

I don't know anyone tried a Russian roll (they don't seem to work very well on skiffs; they have been tried in the Fifteens).

I recently looked at their class page and it seems to suggest the skipper sit in the boat, strapped into the footstraps in sailing condition, while the crew does the righting. I cringe at the thought; especially if its a junior skipper (in a boat designed to turtle quickly).

Rob Brewer showed me a technique which worked beautifully and I've found converts readily to other skiffs. Since I've never seen it done or taught since (except by me) I call it - for want of a better name - the Elevator Technique.

One crewperson goes to the bow, lies along the luff of the jib (horizontally in the water), puts one foot on the deck under the jib and hangs onto the luff.

Now as the other party rights the boat, the weight of the person on the bow slows - indeed stops - the fling that recapsizes the boat and (as long as they hang on) is elevated onto the foredeck ready to wander back to the cockpit.

The weight of the person also brings the boat head to wind; momentarily leaving it docile.

The skipper had climbed into the cockpit as soon as their weight is not longer needed to provide moment (about 45 degrees), so is already into the cockpit tidying things up as the boat comes upright.

Worked a treat nearly every time.

[PS: The guys in the above photo don't exactly look like teenagers - but then, neither was I]

[PPS: With their smallish spinnaker, they're not great for Portsmouth Rating Racing in rivers in light winds either. Not enough power to go and play in the faster tide until the winds over 12 knots or so and they don't run square well]

 

[Bill E Goat]

As soon as a sporting body introduces the term "Pathways" into their sport it is fucked as they are now focused on one goal and they abandon all the other areas of the sport.  The amount of focus that goes into finding 14 sailors (and 50 support staff) for a shit competition every 4 years is obscene.

Why not have a range of coaching courses for a whole range of sailors that clubs can access.  There are a lot of sailors who couldn't give a fuck about Olympic sailing so why not devote some resources to them.

And to finish Opti's are complete shit and are a training boat.  The line from everyone is all the gold medalists started in Optis is its because its all the FUCKING had, not because they are a good training boat.  Did I say they are shit boats.  The 470 was designed in 1960's as a boat for French seaside resorts

Classes thrive not only from the boat but the culture of the people sailing them

 

[JimC]

Why not have a range of coaching courses for a whole range of sailors that clubs can access.  There are a lot of sailors who couldn't give a fuck about Olympic sailing so why not devote some resources to them.

That would be great if it were possible. By and large it isn't. In the UK at least the government money (well lottery money, but it comes to the same thing) is heavily targeted and ring fenced. The choice is not between spending the money on the pathway or targeting it more widely. The choice is between spending it on the pathway or not having the money at all. Whatever happens the only money available for the sailors who don't give a damn about Olympics is their own.

 

[pitchpole]

29ers are a great class, but it is unfortunate that they sit in the age group where there is a mass ejection of sailors at the age of 19. Moving into adult life (university / work etc) many 29er sailors simply drop sailing all together because they can't afford to move into a 49er and don't know what else to do because their 'pathway' has ended. No fault of the 29er or 49er as a boat, more so that being a pathway class it always becomes political and sometimes toxic when dealing at the high performance side of things.

We are lucky in Australia to have these other skiff classes that sit along-side the 9er pathway, often being more social and less performance orientated. They assist with retaining those ageing out who don't necessarily have the financial capacity to purchase a boat. Plenty of owners are always looking around for crew and this provides a great opportunity to previous 29er sailors to keep enjoying their sailing. 

Unsure to how well the 12s are going (they seem active at Lane Cove and on the Harbour), but certainly the 16s and 18s are healthy thanks to the support of the clubs that sail them. 13s have dropped in numbers recently as a result of both COVID restricting sailing and 13 sailors moving into 16s.

16s are interesting because they have become cross-generational, with sailors from 16 all the way to 70 sailing actively at their local club. I guess you start on the bow and work your way back to the stick (which is only hiking) when your body is done with the trapping.

Speaking of the young 13 sailors graduating to the 16 (Credit Manly 16s Facebook)  

 

[SimonN]

but certainly the 16s and 18s are healthy

16's seem reasonably healthy but 18's? I don't think they are. They are sailed at 1 club with a few stragglers elsewhere. You cannot build sailing as a sport with 24 boats.

I think we have a real issue in Australia that after people finish school, there isn't really a choice of adult boats that will support the sport. And the problem for me is the push into fast "fun" boats at a young age. They get to 18-19 and where do they go? As they cannot afford the next level "adult" boats, they are lost to kites or now, wing dinging or whatever other thing is going on that costs a fraction of sailing and is fast. Look at countries with strong small boat participation and you will see that participation is not based on fast boats but a gradual progression from slow, dare I say Optimist, Cadet, Mirrors type boats to adult boats that are also slow (Solo, RS200/400, Merlins, Enterprise). 

Aussie skiffs have been a great gift to the world of sailing. They have been an important part of my life, having sailed B14s, I14s, 49ers and 18s for a significant part of my adult life, but I have always known that they are a minority "sport" within a sport.

I should also add that some of you need to try to understand pathways better. You seem to think that the only pathway is to the Olympics. There are multiple pathways and those new to the sport can choose which to follow, or at very least, where the branches come in the pathways where you decide what you want out of the sport. I don't know the Australian pathways very well, other than that they are there, but in the UK, there are pathways that allow you to branch toward club sailing or go the other way towards the Olympics, and stuff in between. The message is that if you learn to sail, there are multiple routes you can take. Without those pathways, all you are doing is picking up a skill that yopu don't know how you will use once acquired. Pathways match skills to future activity

 

[Rambler]

On the 18's, they are more of a showcase class than a 'build sailing by participation' class

They certainly have changed from 'the old days' where you could buy a cheap old one and participate; even with no chance of line hounours glory.

But they brought themselves back from near extinction by limiting the cost of running one; which got craxy stupid at one stage.

The 16's do well by being backed by licenced clubs.

In Australia, pathways, at least in the eyes of AS, is all and only about Olympic glory. There is no loop back to clubs in general. It is why opys, as the start of the pathways program, gets beaten upon so viciously. Because Pathways pulls clubs apart; taking their best sailors, putting them in programs away from their clubs, treating them as cannon fodder, discarding the not quite good enough (loosing them to sailing) and keeping the select few.

And admitably, it is corrupted by over ambitious parents (not that they are the only class to have that happen; all the junor classes are exposed to it - just that the Opys are the worst)

Clubs might have their own training programs and lead into their local classes (although AS worked hard to kill those too at one time; and to a large extent succeeded). But that's very different from what we call pathways. 

As for skiffs, there's plenty of cheap enough (and fast enough) ones lying around in sheds. That's part of why I want to go throught them (haven't really yet started). It only takes someone keen enough to get something going to get them out of the sheds and on the water as a racing class. But the more young kids get diverted to pathways, the less there's room for that to happen.

Even 29eer can be bought cheaply enough.

 

[RobG]

In Australia, pathways, at least in the eyes of AS, is all and only about Olympic glory. There is no loop back to clubs in general. It is why opys, as the start of the pathways program, gets beaten upon so viciously. Because Pathways pulls clubs apart; taking their best sailors, putting them in programs away from their clubs, treating them as cannon fodder, discarding the not quite good enough (loosing them to sailing) and keeping the select few.

Certainly a huge issue, sadly not limited to Optis. It's a bitter pill for clubs to put in the effort to attract kids to sailing, put them through learn to sail programs and hopefully get them into their own boats and sailing regularly at the club. Only to see an ambitious class suck them up, take them to events all over the place so the vast majority never return to the club. 

Probably fewer than 1 in 10 kids that go through learn to sail programs manage to become club regulars, and maybe 1 in 10 of those become teenage regulars beyond 2 years. From 20 to mid–30s or 40s they disappear, perhaps returning with their own kids or coming back to a class that suits their wants when their kids are older and careers more established. Then finally there are the die–hard old hacks who may have retired and sail just for the fun of it. These are the people who actually make the club work and represent maybe 1 in 1,000 of the learn to sail  kids from 40 or 50 years ago.

And clubs must work hard to attract and keep women and be as inclusive as possible. They are a fantastic asset to clubs in all roles, my (skiff oriented) club was a bastion of males that folded about 20 years ago. It was resurrected a few years later by families who wanted a place for their kids to sail and has prospered only because of the dedicated efforts of a few stalwarts in the above "old hacks" category, mostly women. I can't thank them enough.

 

[Rambler]

Certainly a huge issue, sadly not limited to Optis. It's a bitter pill for clubs to put in the effort to attract kids to sailing, put them through learn to sail programs and hopefully get them into their own boats and sailing regularly at the club. Only to see an ambitious class suck them up, take them to events all over the place so the vast majority never return to the club. 

Probably fewer than 1 in 10 kids that go through learn to sail programs manage to become club regulars, and maybe 1 in 10 of those become teenage regulars beyond 2 years. From 20 to mid–30s or 40s they disappear, perhaps returning with their own kids or coming back to a class that suits their wants when their kids are older and careers more established. Then finally there are the die–hard old hacks who may have retired and sail just for the fun of it. These are the people who actually make the club work and represent maybe 1 in 1,000 of the learn to sail  kids from 40 or 50 years ago.

And clubs must work hard to attract and keep women and be as inclusive as possible. They are a fantastic asset to clubs in all roles, my (skiff oriented) club was a bastion of males that folded about 20 years ago. It was resurrected a few years later by families who wanted a place for their kids to sail and has prospered only because of the dedicated efforts of a few stalwarts in the above "old hacks" category, mostly women. I can't thank them enough.

My experience entirely; and that's after 25 years of running LTS and training programs.

The draining has a doubled up effect.

Not only do you lose those who go off down the hero path, you also lose the critical mass of kids to make it a good social scene for the ones who are left. Not all kids want to be that intense about their sailing and some just aren't good enough to make it anyway; neither of which I have a problem with, but it rips apart the social fabric.

Personally, I've given up on junior training programs. Partly sick of dealing with the above, partly because the river I sail on isn't really ideal for junior boats and now largely because I've found a better way of building my club and reinvigorating it. I'm sure you've seen the link before but I run a program that introduces young adults (20 to 40) who have never sailed before, to high performance, twin wire skiff racing. Facebook page of the group is here https://www.facebook.com/Mr-Bond-The-Ballina-Skiff-Sail-Training-Group-110226546310465

The thing is, it really grabs them. We have a retention rate that makes any other program look like a waste of time; and most of those we do lose are because they move away or get a conflicting job in a holiday town job market (so need to work weekends). And surprisingly, the greater percentage of the trainees are women.

Now the challenge is to keep the 'pathway' (the good one) moving. Finding boats to sail and finding or teaching skippers to sail them in what started out as a crew training program.

 

[bat]

16's seem reasonably healthy but 18's? I don't think they are. They are sailed at 1 club with a few stragglers elsewhere. You cannot build sailing as a sport with 24 boats.

I think we have a real issue in Australia that after people finish school, there isn't really a choice of adult boats that will support the sport. And the problem for me is the push into fast "fun" boats at a young age. They get to 18-19 and where do they go? As they cannot afford the next level "adult" boats, they are lost to kites or now, wing dinging or whatever other thing is going on that costs a fraction of sailing and is fast. Look at countries with strong small boat participation and you will see that participation is not based on fast boats but a gradual progression from slow, dare I say Optimist, Cadet, Mirrors type boats to adult boats that are also slow (Solo, RS200/400, Merlins, Enterprise). 

Aussie skiffs have been a great gift to the world of sailing. They have been an important part of my life, having sailed B14s, I14s, 49ers and 18s for a significant part of my adult life, but I have always known that they are a minority "sport" within a sport.

I should also add that some of you need to try to understand pathways better. You seem to think that the only pathway is to the Olympics. There are multiple pathways and those new to the sport can choose which to follow, or at very least, where the branches come in the pathways where you decide what you want out of the sport. I don't know the Australian pathways very well, other than that they are there, but in the UK, there are pathways that allow you to branch toward club sailing or go the other way towards the Olympics, and stuff in between. The message is that if you learn to sail, there are multiple routes you can take. Without those pathways, all you are doing is picking up a skill that yopu don't know how you will use once acquired. Pathways match skills to future activity

I think the issue has now become a little confused.

With regards to the 18, aside from a very long time ago when an own boat may have been possible, there are as many numbers now as there have been for some time. I would suggest more of an opportunity there than chasing the very limited ringed circus as a ‘pathway’. Boat provided, just make sure you turn up each week. But that is only one small pathway.

Take the 16. Numbers have ebbed and flowed but good management linked with sailing orientated clubs keep it achievable. A fantastic pathway for juniors right through to adult. At the Sydney clubs the 13 is the intermediate step after MJs and F11s. Belmont has the Cherub still as its intermediate step from the local Pelican and F11 following. Crews are encouraged and assisted with club funding to offset those goals. The level of abilities continues at the upper end to be outstanding. Admittedly though, that is all Sydney based. Other states have their own variances and for different reasons they worked. Some had cadets as the junior feeder (Tas, SA), others the Sabot, Mudlark, Pelican, Skyrider (non raced trainer) and so on. The intermediate classes ranged from Cherubs, 420s, JDs, MG14s, NS14s of which many either stayed or stepped on (or found cars and partners). Dependent on states the next steps were there in many forms of performance boats, not just skiffs. The Sharpie is one that always stood out in the non skiff stranglehold states. The 14 held strength in Vic, SA and WA with pockets elsewhere. Fireballs did ok in southern states and so on. Apologies not to cover all as there are so many but essentially a grab of those bar a few that don’t have an international pinnacle with those that race them not giving two fks about that.

But what was important is that there was, and in many ways still is pathways that keep the sport turning over. Yes some newer classes came along that added to that list and a few dropped away but there are plenty of opportunities outside of pushing kids solely towards the circus. If their junior days are focussed more on fun and less on the strictly mapped out coaching/training ethic pushed by SA and goal seeking parents, newcomers to the sport might just stick with it.

As for exciting classes over slow shitboxes, I wonder what type of racing the kids will be watching on the TV this coming weekend cheering on those ex sabot, MJ and flying ant sailors that will be in the final in San Francisco? Ironically, by their own admission, stars of today that used to do exactly the same thing when they were young in watching the Grand Prix 18s. 

One the back of that exciting mindset that is offering a realistic step to keeping teens in the game is the Waszp. A somewhat pared back moth but it’s acceptance globally reflects what many want. No surprise a forward thinking Sail GP has linked with them over showcasing old slow junk.

The Olympics were great for Sydney as a whole, but unfortunately helped stuff up a wide variance of pathways through an SA that wanted more control and a slice of funds that in many ways result in todays narrowed vision. 

 

[Rohanoz]

Sabots costing $10000 now appear cheap compared to each 5 ring myopic opti parent spending $20000 on coach boats and huge 4WD to tow them.

I keep reading this $10k Sabot thing - nice rumour and story to tell about isolated trophy hunters from 10+ years ago, but certainly not the class norm and I would challenge you to find one.

Brand new boat with full carbon rig is available right now to sail at the Nationals in a couple of weeks in a fleet of 60 boats for $7k.

Current Nat champ boat is for sale for $4k.  I can point you to 3 or 4 others that are perfectly setup to win the Nats thru ability for around $3k.  Quality entry level boats from $1000.  If you are spending $10k, then you have more money than sense.

Some people spend like it's Monopoly money in the quest for the easy win and you can't stop them - some of us work hard for it and are happy to spend it on quality equipment and extra time on the water.  Still beats spending it on gambling, drugs and alcohol.

One thing is for sure - the kids coming out of the top of the Sabot fleet have as much skill as the kids at the top of the Opti fleet - and in my experience all the Sabot kids definitely transition much easier to the skiff classes.  Different pathway for different people.

 

[Rambler]

Before we move onto senior classes, we can't ignore the VJ. Maybe not  skiff, but that depends on the definition

If you were a kid sailing in the 60's, you sailed a VJ. They were everywhere. The Cherubs and other classes somewhat displaced them in the 70's, but they're still around and making a comeback.

I remember watching them - when I first started sailing - gybing by throwing the pole of their single luff spinnaker around the front of the jib.

View attachment 198577

 

[SimonN]

In Australia, pathways, at least in the eyes of AS, is all and only about Olympic glory. There is no loop back to clubs in general.

This is simply incorrect. It might help if you actually looked at the pathways.  

If you read the detail, everything goes through clubs and only when you reach the higher pathway levels at clubs are "advanced options" introduced which includes a "high performance pathway". And at no time are the Olympics even mentioned in the pathway. But why let the truth get in the way of a good whinge. 

 

[MelbourneA31]

I keep reading this $10k Sabot thing - nice rumour and story to tell about isolated trophy hunters from 10+ years ago, but certainly not the class norm and I would challenge you to find one.

Brand new boat with full carbon rig is available right now to sail at the Nationals in a couple of weeks in a fleet of 60 boats for $7k.

Current Nat champ boat is for sale for $4k.  I can point you to 3 or 4 others that are perfectly setup to win the Nats thru ability for around $3k.  Quality entry level boats from $1000.  If you are spending $10k, then you have more money than sense.

Some people spend like it's Monopoly money in the quest for the easy win and you can't stop them - some of us work hard for it and are happy to spend it on quality equipment and extra time on the water.  Still beats spending it on gambling, drugs and alcohol.

One thing is for sure - the kids coming out of the top of the Sabot fleet have as much skill as the kids at the top of the Opti fleet - and in my experience all the Sabot kids definitely transition much easier to the skiff classes.  Different pathway for different people.

I'm not that familiar with the Sabot Class Rules. Can you still home build & did they require boats to be built only from certain mandated builders?

 

[Rambler]

This is simply incorrect. It might help if you actually looked at the pathways. View attachment 499954  

If you read the detail, everything goes through clubs and only when you reach the higher pathway levels at clubs are "advanced options" introduced which includes a "high performance pathway". And at no time are the Olympics even mentioned in the pathway. But why let the truth get in the way of a good whinge. 

Simon, I didn't start this page to beat up on AS or the Opys.

Indeed, on the whole I try not to go too far in my public statements on them. I fought the battle against them some 20 years ago as they started to destroy very successful club LTS programs - and thus clubs themselves - with a raft of restrictions and rules. Instead I just did things outside their systems (as did many other clubs which continued to be successful)

Bit by bit they continued to erode and chip away every little other pillar that connected a club program that did not fit within their system with AS.

Their instructor renewal rules were the final straw. They were tougher to satisfy when you didn't live in a major city than anything I had to do for continuing education for either my legal or accounting qualifications. And remember in those fields, the rules and laws are constantly changing. You need to keep up.

So 20 years of actually running training - often twice a week, about 40 weeks a year - counted for nothing because I didn't keep up. With what?

But unfortunately, you keep bringing me back to the issue.

Let me interpert that diagram for you.

Clubs - using the boats and techiques which best facilitate AS objectives of wnning medals - do the hard work of getting people to participate and giving them initial LTS training.

Then they come along and seduce away all your good sailors, leaving you a depleted field of kids made to feel like losers who have lost their social group. You as the club are then invited to do with them whatever you want - in the unlikely event they stay -  because AS aren't interested.