Adrienne had some fantastic seasons in the 18s with a few event wins but never managed to win the GP series. AAMI won in 92/93 which Julian would remember.
Australian Skiffs
- Thread starter Rambler
- Start date
DavidYacht
Member
Sailed in a club race on Saturday where I suspect the first 10 helms have accumulated around 500 years of small boat sailing between them. I don’t think any have ever sailed optimists. All learnt in two handlers and progressed to two person adult classes. I suspect that the main interest for us all back in the day was the possibility to muck about in boats with little supervision and after that to hook up with potential partners, drink beer etc. etc.
interestingly I see a lot of the Merlin Rocket class where there are a lot of very good younger sailors working through the fleet, which seem to have circumvented the pathway systems
interestingly I see a lot of the Merlin Rocket class where there are a lot of very good younger sailors working through the fleet, which seem to have circumvented the pathway systems
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #103
There is one more Javelin/NS14 rabbit hole to be chased down before I move on to the more interesting 'real skiffs' (well, sort of real skiffs, given the next few boats I have in mind).
And that of course is the Tasar.
The Tasar was a spin off of the NS14 concept Frank Bethwaite designed lt be taken to the world. One design (not development like the NS), with a more marketable raked stem (although personally I prefer the vertical one) and with a more family friendly cockpit arrangement.
When you cast your eye back over the boats I've covered so far, I really think Julian should be curating this forum since his family seems to be neck deep in the history of just about all the classes (I didn'tknow they brought the Cherub and Flying Ant to Australia).
But I will risk Julian's ire by saying I personally prefer the NS14. It just has a more throughbred feel about it.
I included the second photo because it reminded me of a canny old NS14 sailor who admittted to placing his elbow across the chest of his crew to stop them slacking off on the hiking.
But it also reminds me of why I much prefer twin wire skiffs to these sort of boats. Trapezing is much easier on old bodies then really proper hiking.
And that of course is the Tasar.
The Tasar was a spin off of the NS14 concept Frank Bethwaite designed lt be taken to the world. One design (not development like the NS), with a more marketable raked stem (although personally I prefer the vertical one) and with a more family friendly cockpit arrangement.
When you cast your eye back over the boats I've covered so far, I really think Julian should be curating this forum since his family seems to be neck deep in the history of just about all the classes (I didn'tknow they brought the Cherub and Flying Ant to Australia).
But I will risk Julian's ire by saying I personally prefer the NS14. It just has a more throughbred feel about it.
I included the second photo because it reminded me of a canny old NS14 sailor who admittted to placing his elbow across the chest of his crew to stop them slacking off on the hiking.
But it also reminds me of why I much prefer twin wire skiffs to these sort of boats. Trapezing is much easier on old bodies then really proper hiking.
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #104
Since we're on a run of Bethwaite influences (and maybe another spinnoff's of the javein/NS14 family - although no doubt Julian will say this is a step too far), I should mention the B14.
The class website starts its history with the following...
"In 1987 the B14 was launched in Australia. Since then fleets have also grown in Japan and Hong Kong. In 1993 Rondar Race boats Ltd launched the B14 into Europe."
That might suggest that the class was designed by Julian in Australia, for Australians. And yet, that's not how I remember it. I understood it was from the outset an attempt to take Australian skiffs concepts to the World, the concept being settled with Asian collerabation (Japanese I think). Here I'm sticking my neck out because I also recall it was originally designed as a twin wire boat, but that was regarded as a step too far for the international market, so hiking wings were used instead (by 1984, wings were being used on 18ft skiffs and growing rapidly; but of course, in those, you trapezed off the end of the wings). No doubt Julian will be along eventually to beat me up for any errors :lol:
The class website starts its history with the following...
"In 1987 the B14 was launched in Australia. Since then fleets have also grown in Japan and Hong Kong. In 1993 Rondar Race boats Ltd launched the B14 into Europe."
That might suggest that the class was designed by Julian in Australia, for Australians. And yet, that's not how I remember it. I understood it was from the outset an attempt to take Australian skiffs concepts to the World, the concept being settled with Asian collerabation (Japanese I think). Here I'm sticking my neck out because I also recall it was originally designed as a twin wire boat, but that was regarded as a step too far for the international market, so hiking wings were used instead (by 1984, wings were being used on 18ft skiffs and growing rapidly; but of course, in those, you trapezed off the end of the wings). No doubt Julian will be along eventually to beat me up for any errors :lol:
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #105
The thing that strikes me as I go through the classes is that - esecially in NSW, Queensland and Western Australia, these boats, and the other skiff classes that will follow here, were the norm.
There were small fleets of 420's, 470's 505's, FD's and contenders, but if you sailed two up, spinnakers and trapezes were nearly universal (with one catagory of exception).
The exception related to classes like (and principally) the Heron and Mirror dinghies, english style small, family orientated boats, both of which had very strong fleets (and the Herons still do) [I learnt to sail in Herons]
There were also OK dinghies and a smaller numbers of Finns for single handers, and a number of cat classes; most of the trapezed and fast.
But on the waters of the above three states, skiffs were the norm and others the exception.
Victoria was maybe different (they're always different) with the cadet dinghy and other follow on classes that weren't as performance orientated. Plus I suspect they were more likely to be drawn to the Olympic Classes.
I would suggest it was really the arrival of the Laser that started to swing the balance a bit.
But the other thing I also remember as I became more exposed to non skiffs, is how much easier a skiff is to steer downwind - especially in heavier conditions. They just want to go in a straight line and stay upright, whereas other classes seemed keen to broach - looking at you Herons - or rock and roll and wander all over the place. The Laser was a nightmare to steer downwind in heavy breezes compared to a 1980's 18fter.
There were small fleets of 420's, 470's 505's, FD's and contenders, but if you sailed two up, spinnakers and trapezes were nearly universal (with one catagory of exception).
The exception related to classes like (and principally) the Heron and Mirror dinghies, english style small, family orientated boats, both of which had very strong fleets (and the Herons still do) [I learnt to sail in Herons]
There were also OK dinghies and a smaller numbers of Finns for single handers, and a number of cat classes; most of the trapezed and fast.
But on the waters of the above three states, skiffs were the norm and others the exception.
Victoria was maybe different (they're always different) with the cadet dinghy and other follow on classes that weren't as performance orientated. Plus I suspect they were more likely to be drawn to the Olympic Classes.
I would suggest it was really the arrival of the Laser that started to swing the balance a bit.
But the other thing I also remember as I became more exposed to non skiffs, is how much easier a skiff is to steer downwind - especially in heavier conditions. They just want to go in a straight line and stay upright, whereas other classes seemed keen to broach - looking at you Herons - or rock and roll and wander all over the place. The Laser was a nightmare to steer downwind in heavy breezes compared to a 1980's 18fter.
SimonN
Super Anarchist
The B14 was originally called the Exocet but changed name because it didn't sit well in the UK because of the Exocet Missile and it's association with the sinking of British ships during the Falklands War. When it first arrived in the UK, I believe there was the option of sailing with racks and hiking or without racks (or maybe with smaller racks) and single trapeze. However, it was quickly learnt that 2 hiking had more righting moment than one trapezing and the class very quickly became what we know today.Since we're on a run of Bethwaite influences (and maybe another spinnoff's of the javein/NS14 family - although no doubt Julian will say this is a step too far), I should mention the B14.
The class website starts its history with the following...
"In 1987 the B14 was launched in Australia. Since then fleets have also grown in Japan and Hong Kong. In 1993 Rondar Race boats Ltd launched the B14 into Europe."
That might suggest that the class was designed by Julian in Australia, for Australians. And yet, that's not how I remember it. I understood it was from the outset an attempt to take Australian skiffs concepts to the World, the concept being settled with Asian collerabation (Japanese I think). Here I'm sticking my neck out because I also recall it was originally designed as a twin wire boat, but that was regarded as a step too far for the international market, so hiking wings were used instead (by 1984, wings were being used on 18ft skiffs and growing rapidly; but of course, in those, you trapezed off the end of the wings). No doubt Julian will be along eventually to beat me up for any errors :lol:
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #107
I was looking through the UK Cherub website, and found this little snippet of the history of the class which seems to provide some justification for my linking of the NS14 and Javelin classes (and their respective spin-offs)
"The Cherub was a considerable influence on other classes. The 14ft NZ Javelin was virtually a straight enlargement of the Cherub. Frank Bethwaite's first prototype for the NS14 was a drawn out Cherub, although they later elected to use a Spencer Javelin hull design for the first boats. From NS14 development came the Tasar, the Bethwaite skiffs and the 49er."
"The Cherub was a considerable influence on other classes. The 14ft NZ Javelin was virtually a straight enlargement of the Cherub. Frank Bethwaite's first prototype for the NS14 was a drawn out Cherub, although they later elected to use a Spencer Javelin hull design for the first boats. From NS14 development came the Tasar, the Bethwaite skiffs and the 49er."
Bored Stiff
Member
In my opinion the B14 is one of the most photogenic boats out there and it remains a regret that I have not sailed one. I seem to recall when they first launched in Europe that there were plans for a very expensive open meeting circuit presumably with prize money to match.
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
fastyacht
Super Anarchist
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Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #113
I've been playing around the edges on going through the Australian Skiffs.
The stories of the original skiffs like the 18's is long (as in 125 years or more) and complex. It won't be a one box story.
And i thought it would be nice to show the many skiffs that ordinary Australian have sailed - often since childhood - before I get onto the top end of the range.
But that's not to say i won't drop in a few teasers along the way.
Here's a photo of a champion boat (sailed by Dave Porter) from about the early 70's showing off some nice trapezing style and making it look easy.
One of my favorite photos
The stories of the original skiffs like the 18's is long (as in 125 years or more) and complex. It won't be a one box story.
And i thought it would be nice to show the many skiffs that ordinary Australian have sailed - often since childhood - before I get onto the top end of the range.
But that's not to say i won't drop in a few teasers along the way.
Here's a photo of a champion boat (sailed by Dave Porter) from about the early 70's showing off some nice trapezing style and making it look easy.
One of my favorite photos
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
I spent a majority of the first two thirds of my sailing career hanging off a Cherub wire, so I like to think I have some idea what its about... Whilst admittedly it was the kite hoists and drops that really stopped it being fun and prompted my retirement, other factors, like the calf of the rear leg starting to get into cramp on longer legs - telling the helm we couldn't tack until I'd massaged my leg back into operation was not a tactical advantage - and the instantaneous explosion of energy required during manouvers were factors too. A Canoe sliding seat was a much more civilised proposition as time caught up with me.
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #115
Arr, there's the problem.
You needed to skipper.
Crewing a twin wire skiff is hard work. I have to do it sometimes while training skippers. I'd make a lousy race crew. Very lazy on the mainsheet
But I'm well past my mid 60's and can come off a days racing skippering one on the wire without any specific pains; just exhausted. Really fluky, in/out days are a problem though, but I suspect they would be on a plank too.
fastyacht
Super Anarchist
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this is interesting.
Because I have been sailing canoe more. But it is the hardest thing I have ever done on a sailboat. Then again methinks the 505 is a gentleman's dinghy compared to the Cherub. I better get a cherub before it is too late and my legs start cramping!
Rambler
Super Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #117
Since the topic of the International Canoe has been raised, let's include an Australian plank tortourer. The Skate
http://www.skatesailingaustralia.org/images/slide3.jpg
http://www.skatesailingaustralia.org/images/slide2.jpg
It was designed in the late 50's to be a following on boat from the then very popular VJ (dealt with up thread)
But the timing was unfortunate in that the Cherub arrived shortly afterwards and became 'the boat' for older teenagers and those in their early 20's.
Personaly I've never understood how you come in off a 10ft plank quick enough to deal with a sudden lull. Double tea bagging a skiff (a phrase that now causes much smirking and giggles among Gen X) is bad enough. Getting washed off the end of a plank would seem worse.
A friend of mine sailed one in his youth. Although instead of 'sailing' he described it more as sitting capsized in th middle of the bay most of the time.
http://www.skatesailingaustralia.org/images/slide3.jpg
http://www.skatesailingaustralia.org/images/slide2.jpg
It was designed in the late 50's to be a following on boat from the then very popular VJ (dealt with up thread)
But the timing was unfortunate in that the Cherub arrived shortly afterwards and became 'the boat' for older teenagers and those in their early 20's.
Personaly I've never understood how you come in off a 10ft plank quick enough to deal with a sudden lull. Double tea bagging a skiff (a phrase that now causes much smirking and giggles among Gen X) is bad enough. Getting washed off the end of a plank would seem worse.
A friend of mine sailed one in his youth. Although instead of 'sailing' he described it more as sitting capsized in th middle of the bay most of the time.
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Aussies are always beating their chest about skiff sailing, yet seem to be most successful recently at Olys in laser and 470's - some of those sailors were in the above sabot list (as well as Outeridge being 49er sailor)
At local level - as mentioned before the two closest skiff clubs - (St George and Georges river) - are or are in process of being administered by another club for financial reasons - bit strange when majority of revenue comes from Poker machines
At local level - as mentioned before the two closest skiff clubs - (St George and Georges river) - are or are in process of being administered by another club for financial reasons - bit strange when majority of revenue comes from Poker machines
Yes Norm,
Skiff sailing and sailing in general is in decline in Australia. Most classes are seeing numbers reduced every year and most classes are seeing an ageing of their followers. I suspect its the same world wide. I listed earlier the number of sailing clubs in Sydney which have closed shop, a lot of them were 12ft and 16ft skiff clubs. There were only ever two 18ft clubs and one survives with modern one design 18s while the other has vintage replicas.
When I sailed 12s in Sydney in the 70s we had 85 boats at a state championship from 7 clubs, now there are about 12 boats from 3 clubs. By the 70s the fourteens had one or two clubs and a few boats but there are none now. The 16s survive in a small number of clubs due to some very good club business management and good subsidies for 16ft sailing.
This does not mean in any way that we should not celebrate Australian Skiff sailing. It has added greatly to performance small boat sailing world wide with many one design skiff like boats starting with the Olympic 49er down. The rest of the world has learned a lot from Aust about the performance gains from big sail areas and lots of righting moment added to slippery hull shapes and light weight.
In traditional open design development terms, ie design and build in winter and sail in summer, only the 12s survive, but even they rarely see any new builds, the 16s and 18s having gone one design long ago.
Skiff sailing and sailing in general is in decline in Australia. Most classes are seeing numbers reduced every year and most classes are seeing an ageing of their followers. I suspect its the same world wide. I listed earlier the number of sailing clubs in Sydney which have closed shop, a lot of them were 12ft and 16ft skiff clubs. There were only ever two 18ft clubs and one survives with modern one design 18s while the other has vintage replicas.
When I sailed 12s in Sydney in the 70s we had 85 boats at a state championship from 7 clubs, now there are about 12 boats from 3 clubs. By the 70s the fourteens had one or two clubs and a few boats but there are none now. The 16s survive in a small number of clubs due to some very good club business management and good subsidies for 16ft sailing.
This does not mean in any way that we should not celebrate Australian Skiff sailing. It has added greatly to performance small boat sailing world wide with many one design skiff like boats starting with the Olympic 49er down. The rest of the world has learned a lot from Aust about the performance gains from big sail areas and lots of righting moment added to slippery hull shapes and light weight.
In traditional open design development terms, ie design and build in winter and sail in summer, only the 12s survive, but even they rarely see any new builds, the 16s and 18s having gone one design long ago.
