Australian Skiffs

[JimC]

... confirmed when RS launched their own version of the concept - the RS400 - which I understand, being more production and polyester resin built, out competed the 59er on price. But all of this is second hand knowledge, so entirely consestable..

Very contestable. The RS400 came out many years before the 59er, indeed it was the first RS boat. Its not really a skiff type at all, being basically a sanitised mass market version of a Merlin-Rocket. 

I don't think it had any significant sales anywhere. I have a number of theories why it failed, but I think people putting wires on it unofficially was certainly part of it, because who needs uncertainty about what the boat is for. Why would you buy a boat for two heavier sailors if it looks as if its going to get a wire and thus be faster with a lighter crew? 

 

[bat]

I don't think so, think it was Phil (cubby) Barnett.

Cub the year before. Rottnest with the Kid and Nod in 92/93 for you mate.

 

[Rambler]

One last diversion before we delve into the upper end of the skiff spectrum; dealing with the twin (or more) style skiffs and the historical background to them.

And that's the Australian Lightweight Sharpie. Some might argue that it's a bit borderline for skiff designation.

But it's an interesting boat because it was for many years the Intervarsity boat (and one I spent a season or two sailing way back when I was at Uni) 

It's an unusual boat for a number of reasons. A three person crew with only one on the wire, it's 19ft long but very narrow. "Lightweight" is a relative term. By modern skiff standards, it's not that light. But it derived from the old Heavyweight Sharpie, which itself came from the 12 Square Meter Sharpie (not to be confused witht he former America's Cup Class), which was a sailing class at the 1956 Olympics.

I haven't really been following the class in recent years. It slumped a bit after the Universitys stopped using it. But I read it has had something of a revival recently.

 

[JulianB]

There is one more Javelin/NS14 rabbit hole to be chased down before I move on to the more interesting 'real skiffs' (well, sort of real skiffs, given the next few boats I have in mind).

And that of course is the Tasar.

The Tasar was a spin off of the NS14 concept Frank Bethwaite designed lt be taken to the world. One design (not development like the NS), with a more marketable raked stem (although personally I prefer the vertical one) and with a more family friendly cockpit arrangement. 

When you cast your eye back over the boats I've covered so far, I really think Julian should be curating this forum since his family seems to be neck deep in the history of just about all the classes (I didn'tknow they brought the Cherub and Flying Ant to Australia).

But I will risk Julian's ire by saying I personally prefer the NS14. It just has a more throughbred feel about it.





I included the second photo because it reminded me of a canny old NS14 sailor who admittted to placing his elbow across the chest of his crew to stop them slacking off on the hiking.

But it also reminds me of why I much prefer twin wire skiffs to these sort of boats. Trapezing is much easier on old bodies then really proper hiking.

View attachment 506226

The shot head on is the Dogllas's, Nicole is the forward hand and she is "adventure of a sailor girl". Rob is the skipper and Nicole's father, they went on to quite a few World championships, and that's what the boat is about, husband/wife and parent/child sailing together.

 

[Rambler]

I promised there'd be some teasers along the way to the 18's.

Partly because the history of the 18's is essentialy the history of a few of the other classes too (especally the 12ft and 16ft skiffs; it's just that there aren't as many photos of them.

And there were other similar boats 'back then' including 10ft and even small skiffs; all with oversize rigs.

So this is what you expect an 18ft skiff to look like today



This is what they looked like in the late 1800's - over 120 years ago



So, I've cheated. I think these are actually 22fters; but the 18's of the day looked exactly the same. I just had this photo handy. I'll find ones of 18's when I get on to them properly.

Note the size of the crews (about 15 in the 18's of the day).

Their longlivity is the result of their class rules being very simple. They can only be 18ft long..

Are there any longer lived classes of dinghy/skiff? I doubt it.

 

[Phil S]

I think the International Canoe history predates the 18 footers by at least 10years, and that date includes international competition. Their trophy predates the America's Cup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Canoe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18ft_Skiff

 

[Rambler]

I think the International Canoe history predates the 18 footers by at least 10years, and that date includes international competition. Their trophy predates the America's Cup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Canoe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18ft_Skiff

In the interests of good natured debate, I think your proposition can be contested.

From your link...

"The origins of the [IC] class can be traced back to the 1860s, and International competition with craft that are recognisably ancestors of the current boats started in 1884."

Woozey words if ever there were any.    

The open boats that became (and maybem even then were, the 18fters went back the 'the middle of the 18th century'. Between the 24's and the 6 footers were open boats of 22feet, 19, 18, 16, 14, 10 and 8 feet.("The Blue Water Bushmen", Page 1). So our ancestorys' are older than yours - or so it could be confidently asserted.

"The [IC] Class still competes for the New York Canoe Club Challenge Trophy, which was established in 1885 and is believed to be the oldest international sailing trophy after the America’s Cup. 

Ha, that was yesterday compared to the oldest regatta in the World. The Australia Day Regatta commenced in 1828 and has continued until today and many of the boats that competed from the start were the open boats that became the skiffs of today.

Over to you...

 

[Rambler]

1891 is sometimes marked as the beginning of the history of the 18ft skiffs, because that''s when the Sydney Flying Squadron - the first 18ft specific club - was formed (and continues until this day).

But the boats well predated that.

 

[MRS OCTOPUS]

The open boats that became (and maybem even then were, the 18fters went back the 'the middle of the 18th century'. 

Over to you...

Yer but Nah.

Just  because it floated didn’t make it a skiff.

Most of the open boats to which you seem to want to claim as skiffs were in fact ballasted open keel boats.

JFC the 15 footers we’re hauling half a ton of ballast.

From CT s Blog…….

Perhaps because they thought the complication of a centreboard wasn’t worthwhile in the deep waters of Sydney harbour, throughout the 1860s and early 1870s the small-boat racers stayed faithful to the type they called the “deep keel dinghies”, described as “a miniature yacht without a deck, and a tuck instead of a counter”.[10]  The smallest popular class was the 15 footers, which were limited to a maximum beam of 5 feet beam and a draft of 3 feet. They were described as “heavily sparred, but when launched and before the mast was stepped it would lie over on the side until stiffened with half a ton or so of ballast.”

The other popular “dinghy” classes of the 1860s had the same flawed concept; they were “deep-keeled 16 and 23 footers, without a deck or half deck, which carried lead ballast and big crews….they were undoubtedly dangerous boats…” as one sailor recalled.[11]   Another who raced in a small fleet of “fixed fin” dinghies as late as 1878 recalled that “centreboards were only to be found in a very few boats” at the time.[12]   As early as 1857 and as late as 1865, races for the popular 22 footers specifically banned centreboards. [13]  


 

 

[Rambler]

Skiff of course had a very different meaning then.

If you had a boat that was then known as an 18fter, were open decked (which was until the 50's very much a feature of Australian "skiffs) and there's a direct line of linerage between them and the current breed then they are still the ancestors, even if along the way they've lost their ballest.

After all, they used steel plate centerboards untill well into the 1900's

 

[Jethrow]

Ha, that was yesterday compared to the oldest regatta in the World. The Australia Day Regatta commenced in 1828 and has continued until today and many of the boats that competed from the start were the open boats that became the skiffs of today

Show me the trophy...

 

[Rambler]

Show me the trophy...

There's more to history than a pickle dish

 

[Phil S]

The long running regatta in Sydney near the end of January was called the Anniversary Regatta until around the 1970s when the some national politicians decided there were votes in a National Day and the regatta was renamed. (No matter what the name the celebration on the day of the European invasion is still offensive to the Aboriginal people today.)

The term Skiff comes from the sailing ship era of Europe's world colonisation, when it was a light swift row boat usually with a skeg and heart shaped stern. Like Australia the US has a long line of small light sailing craft also called skiffs based on these earlier row boats. The sailing canoes appear to be part of tis development line. This semantic argument has been aired on SA before. None of these skiffs ever had ballasted keels.

New Zealand also has a big commemoration regatta about the same time of year and a long history of unballasted boats with oversize rigs but they never seem to claim any to be skiffs. Their boats may well predate the unballasted Sydney skiffs.

The one eyed fans of the Australian 16s claim their boats are the original skiffs. I have seem claims that in the early days of last century, re sailing in Sydney, 12s were known as Open 12s, 14s were known as 14ft dinghies, 18s were just 18s, and 16s were known as 16ft skiffs. I have no idea when they all changed to be skiffs but by the 1970s when I sailed 12s that association had Skiff in its name.

 

[JimC]

There are a reasonable number of domestic level events round the world that precede both the Americas Cup and the New York Canoe Club cup. The claim is for International events.

As for which came first, Canoes or Skiffs, well you start getting into semantics. The Canoes went through quite a range of divisions around the end of 19th/beginning of 20thC, almost as many as the skiffs, so the question becomes moot. The19thC sailing canoes were arguably a bit more like modern ICs than the 19thC skiffs were like modern skiffs, and if you go back far enough all the oldest known boats seem to be canoes [grin]! On the other hand the birth of the recreational sailing canoe in the west seems to be a fairly dateable event, whereas the ancestors of the skiffs go back in time to working boats,  ever more unlike anything now called a skiff. 

To tell the truth its a pretty futile argument, because in order to say this is a skiff or this is an International Sailing Canoe you have to draw lines in the sand which were probably not evident to the people at the time.

 

[Rambler]

To tell the truth its a pretty futile argument, because in order to say this is a skiff or this is an International Sailing Canoe you have to draw lines in the sand which were probably not evident to the people at the time.

Yes, but an interesting one if not taken too seriously (or dragged out too long).

PS. Good historical analysis/summary in the preceeding paragraph.

 

[Rainbow Spirit]

When I sailed 12ft skiffs with my dad in the 1960s, the then class rules outlawed enclosed foredecks (your front buoyancy tanks had to be X inches below the gunnels).

As well self draining hulls were banned, at best you could have venturies, and/or pipes passing through your rear buoyancy tank. The later being virtually useless without a raised floor. This at a time when the first self draining NS14 was sailing in 1964.

 

[Rambler]

When I sailed 12ft skiffs with my dad in the 1960s, the then class rules outlawed enclosed foredecks (your front buoyancy tanks had to be X inches below the gunnels).

As well self draining hulls were banned, ...

As was the case with all the then active skiff classes (well, 18's and 16's anyway. I can't speak for the 14's). There wre probably subtle variations in the permitted width of side diecks, but the principle remained.

 

[Rambler]

One problem with single wire (two handed) boats - whether skiffs or not- is the weight distribution.

It's all very well to proscribe that the ideal sailing weight is a 60kg skipper and an 80 kg crew on the wire. But at club, weekend warrior level, things are not that simple. It's usually the (older) 80 kg person who has the money to buy the boat and he might not feel up to the additional effort of crewing.

I had a very practical example of that when my son moved on from the 29er he was sailing with dad, leaving me with the boat meaning a 75 kg skipper was needing a 50 kg crew - suboptimal to say the least.

Which is where twin wire skiffs come into their own.

What must count as the craziest sailing boat afloat (alright, I'm sure someone's going to come up with something else - let's settle for close to the craziest afloat), is the 12ft skiff. A ridiculous amount of sail on a stupidly small boat.

Like a lot of the original skiff types, they come with multiple rig sizes (up to 4), so the right one can be chosen for the day, which meant 'in the old day', they could be sailed in almost any conditions, rather than restricted to the 20 to 25 knot wind limitations common with modern classes.

[We once had our 18ft skiff out in 50 knots. The race was cancelled only because the committe boat wasn't able to anchor without dragging. Mind you, by yhat stage there weren't many left standing. Once you were in, you were pretty well there to stay].

They are nearly always photographed witht heir bows pointing skyward

Like the 18's the origins of these boats go back to the open boats of the 1800's which were diivided into what we might now call classes by length and had few other rules. They formed as a distinctive class with their own class organisation in the 1920's.

 

[Rambler]

As they were in the day gone by

Of course, with boats like they, when things go wrong, they do it in the most spectucular way

 

[Rambler]

Another little teaser

The 18's as they were around the late 60's. Four handed boats (although some were 3 handed by then) These are the big rigs (usually of 3). Spinnakers were of course masthead and several of different sizes and shapes (such as a star cut reacher) would be carried in each race.

A few unusual things about them

First they actually had running backstays. You can just make out the wires from the hounds to down about where the spippers feet are. They were controlled by a double action, very large hifield lever which ran across the boat and was flipped over by the sheet hand as they crossed over. 

Like FD's of the time, the jib sheet was controlled by being wrapped around a teflon winch and jeld by the forward hand uncleated. I remmeber nearly a decade later we had an old time skiffie crew on our boat - by then the winches had long since disappeared - and we just could not get him to put the sjeet in the cleat. He insisted on holding onto the sheet, even though the frce was much too strong to be dealt with.

Finally they were only just starting to end for end the pole in a gybe, instead of dropping the jib (which also acted as a forestay) and swinging the pole across; remembering the poles themselves were something like 18ft long.