Autopilots

[ResilienceSailingInc]

Would be unusual if shaft wasn't exposed. Most solutions done to keep raceboats watertight in case of rudder failure/dropping it to avoid tearing bottom out etc are not OEM.

Fitting arm to shaft for drive unit will be substantial chunk of the cost.

Thank you jack_sparrow, i greatly appreciate your input

 

[Zonker]

Older style boats (not the 1D35) certainly had full depth rudder tubes. Not unheard of.

How is the helm load? That's really the defining factor if a tiller style unit will produce enough thrust (and fast enough) to be useful.

I don't agree that it has to be an underdeck model, given my own experience and those of a lot of single handed boats of similar size in the Singlehanded Transpac.

https://www.sfbaysss.org/main/resources/

Good discussion on Autopilots by the guy who developed the Pelagic: https://www.sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/SSS_Autopilot_011314.pdf

 

[jack_sparrow]

How is the helm load? That's really the defining factor if a tiller style unit will produce enough thrust (and fast enough) to be useful.

I don't agree that it has to be an underdeck model, given my own experience and those of a lot of single handed boats of similar size in the Singlehanded Transpac.

Zonk this is a boat specific thread. A OD 6,500 lb, 35 footer, slick, quick and nimble rudder to boot so a tiller unit will handle it a heartbeat. However the cockpit layout it doesn't for all but deliveries, not long or short course SH racing I suggest. Then again I might have read the OP's requirements wrong.

 

[Zonker]

I wasn't really thinking about cockpit layout too much.

These tiller pilots all attach ~18" forward of the rudder shaft. For single or double handed racing, all the controls seem to be well forward of the tiller except the traveler.  Might have to have a support or extender at the cockpit side wall but certainly it doesn't seem like it would be in the way. What am I missing too?

 

[Zonker]

Uh, I think the rudder shaft IS enclosed.  1D35 for sale in Vancouver, BC:

It's the big tube just forward of the traveler bulkhead.  Tiller pilot it is I guess.

 

[El Borracho]

I wasn't really thinking about cockpit layout too much.

These tiller pilots all attach ~18" forward of the rudder shaft. For single or double handed racing, all the controls seem to be well forward of the tiller except the traveler.  Might have to have a support or extender at the cockpit side wall but certainly it doesn't seem like it would be in the way. What am I missing too?

When I had a smaller boat and a tiller pilot I considered putting the drive inside somewhere....under the winches perhaps. Then much like a windvane-to-tiller arrangement use a line and blocks to connect the tiller. That drive unit out in the cockpit is a disaster: water intrusion, tripping, line tangling, wires, etc. Requires super low friction blocks, BTW.

But I bought a huge boat that painlessly fits an underdeck and quadrant.

Hacking up that 1D35 hull to fit a quadrant seems like overkill.

 

[ResilienceSailingInc]

Zonk this is a boat specific thread. A OD 6,500 lb, 35 footer, slick, quick and nimble rudder to boot so a tiller unit will handle it a heartbeat. However the cockpit layout it doesn't for all but deliveries, not long or short course SH racing I suggest. Then again I might have read the OP's requirements wrong.

You read it right, We are looking at a 1250 mile short handed race plus maybe a 650 mile race and a few 300+ mile races - all short handed

 

[jack_sparrow]

Uh, I think the rudder shaft IS enclosed.  1D35 for sale in Vancouver, BC:

It's the big tube just forward of the traveler bulkhead.  Tiller pilot it is I guess.

Drive below still very doable...but maybe a moment when your wallet suggests "hey  tiller cockpit clutter is better than down below the drive noise driving you mad when in the rack." 

 

[bushsailor]

What races are you doing?

I have not had good experiences with H5000 pilots but that may be the operators!!!! We had an old st2000 that would steer my cat arrow straight for days but the H5000 system was all over the place.

Many monos seem to have high loads in the rudders, never quite worked out why designers do that.

What races are those?

 

[ResilienceSailingInc]

What races are you doing?

I have not had good experiences with H5000 pilots but that may be the operators!!!! We had an old st2000 that would steer my cat arrow straight for days but the H5000 system was all over the place.

Many monos seem to have high loads in the rudders, never quite worked out why designers do that.

What races are those?

Sydney to Auckland, Brisbane to Gladstone, Next years Brisbane to Keppel, Maybe (big maybe) S2H next year

 

[Zonker]

cats have two long skinny hulls that want to track straight. Their rigs are also above the boat (no heeling) the center of effort is not off to one side; thus less helm loads overall.

 

[jack_sparrow]

I have not had good experiences with H5000 pilots but that may be the operators!!!! We had an old st2000 that would steer my cat arrow straight for days but the H5000 system was all over the place.

My bet calibration reason the reason. H5000 is a very sophisticated AP and requires proper setup. Your ST2000 refers to head unit not AP course computer. Those old Ray S series course computers with a gyro were pretty slick and relatively speaking still so today.

The OP might be better off with a B&G cheap and cheerful model which is a rebranded Navico/Simrad.

 

[olaf hart]

Pelagic.

They make a cost effective remote as an option too.

I use a Madman remote on my Ray pilot, works fine.

 

[bushsailor]

My bet calibration reason the reason. H5000 is a very sophisticated AP and requires proper setup. Your ST2000 refers to head unit not AP course computer. Those old Ray S series course computers with a gyro were pretty slick and relatively speaking still so today.

The OP might be better off with a B&G cheap and cheerful model which is a rebranded Navico/Simrad.

We have had the most experienced B&G guys in the country install the system. I think it looses or changes its settings due to its learning and constantly needs fiddling with.. I really have no idea though except it is annoying. 

I agree a simple system is often better unless you are full time on a boat and happy to hose many many hours at it. An old H2000 system will often work for years and years without trouble.

 

[bushsailor]

cats have two long skinny hulls that want to track straight. Their rigs are also above the boat (no heeling) the center of effort is not off to one side; thus less helm loads overall.

I was referring to rudder balance, pretty simple to design a rudder that gives feeedback but doesn't need three strong men swinging on it to turn.

 

[Moonduster]

We have had the most experienced B&G guys in the country ...

which country?

 

[DtM]

Check his location !!!  OZ.

 

[Zonker]

Many monos seem to have high loads in the rudders, never quite worked out why designers do that

Ah, sorry missed what you mean at first. It's because (a) monohulls heel (b) not all designers have the ability to get both rudder balance and rig balance correct on every boat in every sailing condition.

When a monohull heels a lot (think a reach on a windy day) the center of effort of the sail plan is way over to leeward somewhere. This produces a turning moment which increases weather helm. And wider sterns with assymetric waterplanes also produce turning moments.

Modern deep racing spade rudders with really good and accurate foil sections reduce helm loads, but not for all conditions.

Some boats are more easily balanced by trimming main and jib in different ways to reduce weather helm and thus the helm load.

Guessing the "lead" between static CLR and CE is actually hard unless you are duplicating a very similar hull and rig.

 

[eliboat]

Don’t forget, that as water is 800 times more dense than air, a larger than 1% shift in CLE can cause a significant imbalance that could result in either weather or lee helm.  If this is the case, messing with the sailplan will do little to remedy the situation.  

 

[DanimalNZ]

with the Ray marine system using a type 1 linear drive, what is the standby resistance on the tiller like?  is it noticeable at all?  my rudder post is exposed below - trying to decide whether to go type 1 or sort a tiller pilot arrangement.  but i have no feel for how much resistance the type 1 will give when not being used