B.Chance Jr design boats

chorus1

Anarchist
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France
Just to start this topic, the first one ton from Chance before resolute salmon i mean Chance 37 fiber glass boat from Wauquiez in France .

One of the first one produced was in Belgium admirals cup as "Scarlett O'hara", half hull below :)

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P_Wop

Super Anarchist
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Just so we can get the tanktest/reality problem/nightmare done first, here's Mariner.

33175d1247472237-britton-chance-portfolio-1974_ac_mariner-1_nq_1_p30.jpg


Onwards, please to the good ones......

 

someoldsalt

Member
473
8
where is Britt these days? Still in business? He had some pretty interesting boats as well as some big failures-people love to tell that old story about Mariner, but there were some pretty interesting and successful designs as well-ayone got any photos or good info or are we going to have to hear everyone's version of Turner's "geez Britt, even a turd is tapered"...?

 
Didn't he also design a one tonner "Offshore One/34"?, which was built in Finland in the late 70s.early 80s? I have a brochure somewhere which I now have to search for.

5*

 

~HHN92~

Super Anarchist
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atefooterz said:
What made mariner so bad?
Boating folk, more often than not,believe that beauty equals speed.

The reality however is that a 60foot classic Fyfe design with long overhangs

is limited to a shorter real waterline length than the modern squared off ends

that ensure that a minimum of 59ft11&19/20ths of boat are being used.

Mariner was a victim of the 12 metre Rule as seen by early computers hooked up to tank testing equipment. The result was to soak off displacement in underwater areas that "tested" as non hurtfull. The sparkling numbers from the crunchers gave a superior feeling that a breakthrough had been built, yet in the real world, as she went through the water... the drag induced swirling of fluid friction, slowed the beast faster than a IMF Director can run away from any wrongdoings by their bankers selling ponzi schemes.
Britt also claimed that the smaller towing models used at that time did not project up to full scale as accuratedly as the larger models they used later on S&S 87.

What about Equation? That seemed like a pretty fast and interesing boat, tall mizzen mast with folding spreaders, daggerboard.

 
Mariner was a victim of the 12 metre Rule as seen by early computers hooked up to tank testing equipment.

Sounds like you know the story.

Do tell us what kind of computer Britt was using in 1973/74.

 
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SemiSalt

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What about Equation? That seemed like a pretty fast and interesing boat, tall mizzen mast with folding spreaders, daggerboard.
It seemed to me that Chance went down the road of minimum wetted surface all the way to the cul de sac at the end. His non-AC boats all had very rounded sections, and he used very high aspect ratio foils whenever he could. There's an Allied 30-30 around here that's very competitive in our usual <10 breezes. It has a "golf tee" rudder like they've discussed in the Dick Carter thread.

He also designed a couple very nice rowing boats. I think he had an office in Essex, CT and rowed to work on the Connecticut River sometimes.

 

Steam Flyer

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What made mariner so bad?
Short answer- big underwater transom

Dragging flat surfaces perpendicular to flow is rarely fast.... although if the flow had seperated cleanly, it might have worked like the "hula bubble" that NZ tried on the IACC boats. There were a lot of comments at the time that if Mariner could have gotten up to 20 knots, it would have worked great.

I give Chance a real salute for trying something new & different. At one level, it was like gambling with other peoples money; but OTOH they already knew how impossible it would be to beat S&S at the game with a more conventional design.

FB- Dou

{edit for typos}

 
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~HHN92~

Super Anarchist
5,137
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What made mariner so bad?
Short answer- big underwater transom

Dragging flat surfaces perpendicular to flow is rarely fast.... although if the flow had seperated cleanly, it might have worked like the "hula bubble" that NZ tried on the IACC boats. There were a lot of comments at the time that if Mariner could have gotten up to 20 knots, it would have worked great.

I give Chance a real salute for trying something new & different. At one level, it was like gambling with other peoples money; but OTOH they already knew how impossible it would be to beat S&S at the game with a more conventional design.

FB- Dou

{edit for typos}
Seems like at one time heard the idea was like steps on the unlimited hydroplanes that used to race, such as the Miss Budweiser, etc. back in the day.

 

Bob Perry

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I always liked Chance's design because he obviously was not copying anyone. We had a very fast Chance 52'er in Seattle owned by bruce Hedrick, WARRIOR. WARRIOR was dominant for several years.

Bill Buchan raced a very pretty Chance 3/4 tonner for a few years with great success.

When I was a young man I always thought if I could chose a designer to work for it would be Britton Chance.

I think the main idea behind MARINER's fanny was an effort to increase the prismatic coefficient. The 12 meter rule made it hard to push volume into the ends in any "normal" fashion while encouraging a high volume midsection to avoid the skin girth/chain girth penalty. But I am far from an expert in this rule. Of course you can't tell the MARINER story without mentioning the famous Ted Turner quote whe he realized that MARINER was of the pace. Ted is reported to have said "Even a turd is pointed at both ends." I'm not sure if it's true but it's kind of funny I can can imagine Ted saying it.

I for one would love to see this thread develope like the Carter thread. Britt did some very interesting and effective boats. I'd like to know where he is now. What an amazing interview that could be.

 
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bgytr

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"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

Also failing memory, there was an observed drag reduction in tank tests at higher speeds where wave making drag predominates. Tank tests do not scale directly though because the fluid (water) is the same full scale and model size, so Reynolds numbers and Froude numbers cannot scale at the same time. Wave making drag can be predicted ok (Froude), but eddy making and frictional drag (Reynolds) does not scale so well from tank tests. So the results from Mariner tanks tests were mis-interpreted. Mariner probably would have been fast if conditions were such that it was going 12 knots or better all the time, which would have been rare, especially in Newport.

 

Bob Perry

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Maybe but sometimes it's better to trust your eye. As Starling Burgess once said "If it looks right it is right." And MARINER's tail just looks wrong.

 

Tanton Y_M

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Newport R.I
I always liked Chance's design because he obviously was not copying anyone.

We had a very fast Chance 52'er in Seattle owned by bruce Hedrick, WARRIOR. WARRIOR was dominant for several years.

Bill Buchan raced a very pretty Chance 3/4 tonner for a few years with great success.

When I was a young man I always thought if I could chose a designer to work for it would be Britton Chance.

I think the main idea behind MARINER's fanny was an effort to increase the prismatic coefficient. The 12 meter rule made it hard to push volume into the ends in any "normal" fashion while encouraging a high volume midsection to avoid the skin girth/chain girth penalty. But I am far from an expert in this rule. Of course you can't tell the MARINER story without mentioning the famous Ted Turner quote whe he realized that MARINER was of the pace. Ted is reported to have said "Even a turd is pointed at both ends." I'm not sure if it's true but it's kind of funny I can can imagine Ted saying it.

I for one would love to see this thread develope like the Carter thread. Britt did some very interesting and effective boats. I'd like to know where he is now. What an amazing interview that could be.
I am with you Bob. I wa introduced to Brit with the 5.5 meters class in the 60's. No flower child, he had the sexiest designs of them all. He had boats with a chine above the waterline to maximize, minimize beam for the Rule. With swept back keel to the extreme. But what I am most appreciative is that Chance was one of my three Yacht Designers sponsors to be able to come to America with a green card. I will never forget.

 

chris3dl

Member
328
0
"ever see a fish with a square tail?"

...said Ted Turner after sailing on Mariner (if my failing memory serves)

Also failing memory, there was an observed drag reduction in tank tests at higher speeds where wave making drag predominates. Tank tests do not scale directly though because the fluid (water) is the same full scale and model size, so Reynolds numbers and Froude numbers cannot scale at the same time. Wave making drag can be predicted ok (Froude), but eddy making and frictional drag (Reynolds) does not scale so well from tank tests. So the results from Mariner tanks tests were mis-interpreted. Mariner probably would have been fast if conditions were such that it was going 12 knots or better all the time, which would have been rare, especially in Newport.
A 12 pounder going 12 knots? more like never!!!!

 

Somebody Else

a person of little consequence
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Seems like at one time heard the idea was like steps on the unlimited hydroplanes that used to race, such as the Miss Budweiser, etc. back in the day.
Completely different theories drive those designs. Planing versus displacement.

 

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