Bad Times in Mobile

[ProaSailor]

Southern buoy on Lake Michigan (45007;http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=45007&meas=st)indicates an average water temp in June of around 52 degs. Looking at survival charts for that temp, you would have over an hour. However, it would be the longest hour of your life. http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm

And without a PFD, you would likely drown long before hypothermia kills you due to "functional disability" (loss of muscle control).

http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/coldwater1.pdf

 

[soliton]

Southern buoy on Lake Michigan (45007;http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=45007&meas=st)indicates an average water temp in June of around 52 degs. Looking at survival charts for that temp, you would have over an hour. However, it would be the longest hour of your life. http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm

And without a PFD, you would likely drown long before hypothermia kills you due to "functional disability" (loss of muscle control).

http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/coldwater1.pdf

i know of a case about 25-30 yrs ago where a crewmember in a double-handed race in early June survived north of the buoy position for an hour without a PFD. Even your link shows that is possible (page 36). Not something I would like to experience and normally wear a Mustang Suit if the water is that cold. I should note that he was a very strong swimmer, didn't panic, and did everythng right.

 

[ProaSailor]

Sailor Klein Dies During San Francisco Bay Race
September 19, 1994

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-19/sports/sp-40485_1_san-francisco-bay

The sailing community has been shaken by the death of San Diego's Larry Klein, a multiple world champion and 1989 U.S. Yachtsman of the Year, during a race on San Francisco Bay. He was 42.

Klein was skipper of the 38-foot sloop Twin Flyer, which was leading the fifth race of the 31st Big Boat Series on Saturday when the outboard port hiking rack collapsed and dumped him and six other crewmen into the water between the city front and Alcatraz Island.

The cause of death was not immediately disclosed, although Klein was presumed to have drowned during the crew's estimated eight minutes in the water. Klein, said to be a strong swimmer, apparently was not injured by any of the boat's equipment, and other members of the crew said the water was not particularly cold.

However, one report said there was a chilling breeze and the crewmen were wearing heavy foul-weather clothing, which could have made swimming or even floating difficult in the choppy water. Klein was pronounced dead at the California Pacific Medical Center at 5:56 p.m. Saturday.

None of the crew wore life jackets--not unusual for closed-course sailing, during which the prospect of rescue is seldom far away.

 

[soliton]

Sailor Klein Dies During San Francisco Bay Race

September 19, 1994

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-19/sports/sp-40485_1_san-francisco-bay

The sailing community has been shaken by the death of San Diego's Larry Klein, a multiple world champion and 1989 U.S. Yachtsman of the Year, during a race on San Francisco Bay. He was 42.

Klein was skipper of the 38-foot sloop Twin Flyer, which was leading the fifth race of the 31st Big Boat Series on Saturday when the outboard port hiking rack collapsed and dumped him and six other crewmen into the water between the city front and Alcatraz Island.

The cause of death was not immediately disclosed, although Klein was presumed to have drowned during the crew's estimated eight minutes in the water. Klein, said to be a strong swimmer, apparently was not injured by any of the boat's equipment, and other members of the crew said the water was not particularly cold.

However, one report said there was a chilling breeze and the crewmen were wearing heavy foul-weather clothing, which could have made swimming or even floating difficult in the choppy water. Klein was pronounced dead at the California Pacific Medical Center at 5:56 p.m. Saturday.

None of the crew wore life jackets--not unusual for closed-course sailing, during which the prospect of rescue is seldom far away.

I knew Larry. I know he had boots on but right next to him in the water was Dawn Riley's dad who was much older and I'm sure not in Larry's shape and he survived. All the others survived and I would have predicted the opposite. Very tragic.

 

[rgscpat]

Recollection is that the rule of thumb is 50/50/50: 50% average chance of survival in 50 degree water for 50 minutes. Of course, that assumes that the initial gasp reflex doesn't cause folks to inhale water or that fine and gross muscle control loss doesn't cause swim failure of a swimmer without flotation. With a life jacket, searchers have more time to find and recover you on the surface. Lots of individual differences and different circumstances will mean your drowning time will vary. I had a friend fall in the water (possibly a medical emergency) before a regatta; he remained afloat for about one minute before disappearing; it took three weeks for his body to be found, which meant that the memorial service was held without the closure of knowing what had happened to his body. I drove his SUV back to town to get it to his widow, and later my wife, my friend's skipper, and the marina manager opened his sea bag and found a nearly new automatic inflatable PFD. Stowed in a bag, inflatable PFDs are absolutely lousy at saving lives. Our boat was about a quarter mile away when my friend drowned, and was part of initial and follow-on searches. One of our local friends with lots of lake experience actually made a very accurate prediction about when the body would surface... and interestingly, my friend's body was found three weeks after the drowning, with hat and sunglasses still on the only moderately decayed corpse... the cold, deep water apparently retarded some of the bodily decomposition, even while internal decomposition generated gases to eventually float the body.
PS, one of the speakers at the memorial service, representing my friend's employer, did a horrible job of speaking about him; it was like the guy didn't know my friend at all, and was just rote, flat, emotionless, fake, stumbling reading from his last performance appraisal. That sucked. So, if you won't wear an inflatable or other life jacket, you might think about making sure your funeral plans don't have an asshole participating in the memorial service.
And PS no. 2: Another lesson learned was that springtime winds made the lake turbid enough to render the State Police Dive Team very ineffective and actually put them at some risk. Also, the dive team is more effective when searching smaller and shallower bodies of water. We also tried using a high-end fish finder on another friend's tournament bass boat to try to find my friend's body, but that didn't do us any good at all.

 

[JimC]

BTW I got used to wearing a PFD all the time racing small tippy boats. Good habit to get in, just like wearing seat belts in cars.

'xactly so. If you get in the habit of wearing them all the time, then like m/cycle helmets, gloves and seatbelts, you're so used to it that they don't irritate you: indeed it feels uncomfortable without. Lot of the arguments in this thread sound an awful lot like people claiming they don't want to wear seat belts in case the car catches fire.

 

[Reht]

BTW I got used to wearing a PFD all the time racing small tippy boats. Good habit to get in, just like wearing seat belts in cars.

'xactly so. If you get in the habit of wearing them all the time, then like m/cycle helmets, gloves and seatbelts, you're so used to it that they don't irritate you: indeed it feels uncomfortable without. Lot of the arguments in this thread sound an awful lot like people claiming they don't want to wear seat belts in case the car catches fire.

Not quite. I race my fair share of tipsy boats, I never leave the dock without my pfd on and strapped accordingly on those boats. When I race on big boats I'm one of the ones who will be more likely to wear it than not. But I have been on a boat in a drifter race where the heat was oppressive and even after removing the pfd it was painfully hot. There are times when a pfd is virtually unnecessary. At the same time there are conditions and boats where one should never even consider going out without it or to an even more extreme without a harness/tether.

 

[Foreverslow]

BTW I got used to wearing a PFD all the time racing small tippy boats. Good habit to get in, just like wearing seat belts in cars.

'xactly so. If you get in the habit of wearing them all the time, then like m/cycle helmets, gloves and seatbelts, you're so used to it that they don't irritate you: indeed it feels uncomfortable without. Lot of the arguments in this thread sound an awful lot like people claiming they don't want to wear seat belts in case the car catches fire.

Not quite. I race my fair share of tipsy boats, I never leave the dock without my pfd on and strapped accordingly on those boats. When I race on big boats I'm one of the ones who will be more likely to wear it than not. But I have been on a boat in a drifter race where the heat was oppressive and even after removing the pfd it was painfully hot. There are times when a pfd is virtually unnecessary. At the same time there are conditions and boats where one should never even consider going out without it or to an even more extreme without a harness/tether.

+1

PFDs are great.

I have an inflatable harness that is lightweight

At 15+ knots of wind, I enforce a PFD policy on the boat.

BUT I do not believe in legislating them.

Fuck SF harbor.

Those AC flunkies also wear skid lids like bunch of short bus riders.

Maybe it is needed for going 35 knots on boats that cannot stay together for a real season.

But for those of us on floating condos with life lines, lifeslings, etc who pratice MOB drills, the need to legislate wearing wearing a PFD and/or a skid lid on a 4 knot drifter is stupid.

Shit, why not legislate helmets when your drive?

Race car drivers all wear them. They save lives. And the ROI is larger due to the higher number of automobiles versus sailboat deaths.

I really wish they had a law that said if you want to institute a new law, you have to get rid of an old law.

(and use it to get rid of a stupid law).

Make people think and prioritize what they think is important.

Life is already too complicated from all the rules written by do-gooders trying to save the world.

Use some common sense and enjoy life.

If it is important to you, then do it, but don't drag me in.

 

[AlienBowman]

What is the "UU tragedy" ?

What is a "Florabama" ?

UU is "Uncontrollable Urge", sailboat was racing off Cali in 2013, rudder broke and the boat ran aground on San Clemente island, one crew member was killed. A thread or two exists here somewhere.

Ah, thanks. I had not heard it referred to as the "UU tragedy."

 

[AlienBowman]

Sailor Klein Dies During San Francisco Bay Race

September 19, 1994

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-19/sports/sp-40485_1_san-francisco-bay

The sailing community has been shaken by the death of San Diego's Larry Klein, a multiple world champion and 1989 U.S. Yachtsman of the Year, during a race on San Francisco Bay. He was 42.

Klein was skipper of the 38-foot sloop Twin Flyer, which was leading the fifth race of the 31st Big Boat Series on Saturday when the outboard port hiking rack collapsed and dumped him and six other crewmen into the water between the city front and Alcatraz Island.

The cause of death was not immediately disclosed, although Klein was presumed to have drowned during the crew's estimated eight minutes in the water. Klein, said to be a strong swimmer, apparently was not injured by any of the boat's equipment, and other members of the crew said the water was not particularly cold.

However, one report said there was a chilling breeze and the crewmen were wearing heavy foul-weather clothing, which could have made swimming or even floating difficult in the choppy water. Klein was pronounced dead at the California Pacific Medical Center at 5:56 p.m. Saturday.

None of the crew wore life jackets--not unusual for closed-course sailing, during which the prospect of rescue is seldom far away.

Mr. Klein did not drown. The coroner was unsure but suggested either heart attack or hypothermia.

 

[Maxx Baqustae]

Yes, i believe your quite correct. It wasn't a drowning but didn't he got trapped with the racks or something like that and induced a heart event. I probably have the Sailing World article/issue in the basement but if memory served it was something like that.We didn't really use the name "hypothermia" much in 1989 either.

Frankly, I don't get the segue from a seat belt to a PFD. There is big difference between in a car doing 55 MPH in the (or even 40 or 30) to doing 4 knots on a 4 kntshtbx in 6 knots gusting 8 TWS in flat water and dying. When it's 75 degrees out as witnessed by our race on Wed. Nite. nobody put their's on for that reason. On Saturday's race it was 20+ and lumpy but I/we put ours on as it made common sense not any regulation.

What about motorcycles? Where's the seat belts there?

 

[ProaSailor]

Sailor Klein Dies During San Francisco Bay Race

September 19, 1994

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-19/sports/sp-40485_1_san-francisco-bay

The sailing community has been shaken by the death of San Diego's Larry Klein, a multiple world champion and 1989 U.S. Yachtsman of the Year, during a race on San Francisco Bay. He was 42.

Klein was skipper of the 38-foot sloop Twin Flyer, which was leading the fifth race of the 31st Big Boat Series on Saturday when the outboard port hiking rack collapsed and dumped him and six other crewmen into the water between the city front and Alcatraz Island.

The cause of death was not immediately disclosed, although Klein was presumed to have drowned during the crew's estimated eight minutes in the water. Klein, said to be a strong swimmer, apparently was not injured by any of the boat's equipment, and other members of the crew said the water was not particularly cold.

However, one report said there was a chilling breeze and the crewmen were wearing heavy foul-weather clothing, which could have made swimming or even floating difficult in the choppy water. Klein was pronounced dead at the California Pacific Medical Center at 5:56 p.m. Saturday.

None of the crew wore life jackets--not unusual for closed-course sailing, during which the prospect of rescue is seldom far away.

Much more detail about what happened in this three page article:

Routine Race Ends Tragically : Sailing: Perch collapses and ends life of Larry Klein, one of America's brightest hopes, during event in the Bay Area.

September 23, 1994

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-23/sports/sp-42106_1_larry-klein

Young figures he swam about a quarter-mile chasing Twin Flyer. He and Riley estimated they were all in the water about 15 minutes--an eternity under the circumstances.

A coroner's report on Klein said there was no evidence of trauma or drowning, which seemed surprising. Witnesses described foam around Klein's mouth. Cardiac arrest was suggested.

"I didn't think hypothermia was a factor (in Klein's death)," Riley said. "(The water) felt cold, but it didn't feel numbing to me."

Lou Marselli, a member of the Dolphin Swim and Boat Club in San Francisco, said, "The water's 60 degrees (now). We have people here swimming in it for over an hour. Fifteen minutes doesn't seem like a very long time."

But if a person is wearing rubber boots and isn't otherwise dressed for swimming, and other boats in the area fail to help, 15 minutes can be fatal.

P.S. Larry Klein wasn't the only one struggling.

 

[Ed Lada]

To put this in perspective, I've crossed oceans without ever putting on a pfd. And it was never a problem.

Sure, thousands of people do it every day at 35,000 feet, what is your point?

 

[Ed Lada]

"I didn't think hypothermia was a factor (in Klein's death)," Riley said. "(The water) felt cold, but it didn't feel numbing to me."

I am not necessarily saying the sailor died of hypothermia but the statement above is terrible. Hypothermia can occur in relatively warm water it doesn't have to "feel numbing" at all. Hypothermia is dependent not only on the water temperature and the length of time in the water but also what a person is wearing (or not), the overall physical condition of the individual, the amount of body fat of the individual and other factors. Just one example is the event causing the person to end up in the water could cause various types of traumatic shock that can dramatically increase increase the susceptibility to fatal hypothermia. Statements such as the one above do nothing but reinforce the dangerous idea that hypothermia is only dangerous when the water is very cold, a possibly fatal misconception. I am not saying people should wear a dry suit anytime they are on the water but they should be aware that hypothermia can occur in water that feels fairly warm and it is usually a slow, insidious process that often kills people while they have no awareness even that they are dying.

 

[mustang__1]

Lot of mighty high horses in this thread.

 

[Cement_Shoes]

"I didn't think hypothermia was a factor (in Klein's death)," Riley said. "(The water) felt cold, but it didn't feel numbing to me."

I am not necessarily saying the sailor died of hypothermia but the statement above is terrible. Hypothermia can occur in relatively warm water it doesn't have to "feel numbing" at all. Hypothermia is dependent not only on the water temperature and the length of time in the water but also what a person is wearing (or not), the overall physical condition of the individual, the amount of body fat of the individual and other factors. Just one example is the event causing the person to end up in the water could cause various types of traumatic shock that can dramatically increase increase the susceptibility to fatal hypothermia. Statements such as the one above do nothing but reinforce the dangerous idea that hypothermia is only dangerous when the water is very cold, a possibly fatal misconception. I am not saying people should wear a dry suit anytime they are on the water but they should be aware that hypothermia can occur in water that feels fairly warm and it is usually a slow, insidious process that often kills people while they have no awareness even that they are dying.

beyond the slower process of hypothermia there are quicker health hazards when falling into cold water. vasoconstriction starts occuring immediately as a response to falling into cold water long before the water temp reaches numbing cold. if you have to expend a lot of energy to stay afloat the heart works harder because of the constricted blood vessels and this can lead to heart attack.

even in warmer water the added stress of swimming in foul weather gear can get people into trouble quickly, greatly increases the risk of both heart attack and drowning.

i think Riley is right in saying that hypothermia, in the definition of lowered body temperature, did not play a factor in Larry's death. However i think that it is likely that the water temperature played a crucial role in his death.

 

[Ed Lada]

"I didn't think hypothermia was a factor (in Klein's death)," Riley said. "(The water) felt cold, but it didn't feel numbing to me."

I am not necessarily saying the sailor died of hypothermia but the statement above is terrible. Hypothermia can occur in relatively warm water it doesn't have to "feel numbing" at all. Hypothermia is dependent not only on the water temperature and the length of time in the water but also what a person is wearing (or not), the overall physical condition of the individual, the amount of body fat of the individual and other factors. Just one example is the event causing the person to end up in the water could cause various types of traumatic shock that can dramatically increase increase the susceptibility to fatal hypothermia. Statements such as the one above do nothing but reinforce the dangerous idea that hypothermia is only dangerous when the water is very cold, a possibly fatal misconception. I am not saying people should wear a dry suit anytime they are on the water but they should be aware that hypothermia can occur in water that feels fairly warm and it is usually a slow, insidious process that often kills people while they have no awareness even that they are dying.

beyond the slower process of hypothermia there are quicker health hazards when falling into cold water. vasoconstriction starts occuring immediately as a response to falling into cold water long before the water temp reaches numbing cold. if you have to expend a lot of energy to stay afloat the heart works harder because of the constricted blood vessels and this can lead to heart attack.

even in warmer water the added stress of swimming in foul weather gear can get people into trouble quickly, greatly increases the risk of both heart attack and drowning.

i think Riley is right in saying that hypothermia, in the definition of lowered body temperature, did not play a factor in Larry's death. However i think that it is likely that the water temperature played a crucial role in his death.

I'm with you Cement, my point was making a statement that the water didn't feel numbing so he couldn't have died of hypothermia just helps to spread misconceptions about hypothermia.

 

[Splintered]

if I think I'm in a situation wear I might end up in the water, I put on a pfd. This day, violent weather was in the forecast, being tracked on radar, being talked about for days on the TWC, available to see with anyone with a phone made in the last twenty years. That there was a race that day still has me scratching my head. Ya, I would have worn a pfd if the weather forecast was similar and I had to be out there.

Reading the forecast that morning I would have simply stayed in port.

 

[Snore]

Blanket statements about safety devices are just inappropriate.-----

In fact, we know that PFDs and tethers can be dangerous. Plenty of examples of people in PFDs in boats that capsize, they get trapped in the rig or under the hull and can't swim down against the flotation to get out, or does anyone remember the incident in Chi-Mac a few years ago when the deaths were attributed to being tethered to the boat when it went over and being unable to get the tether off?

Sorry I have to call bullshit. In my "day job" I am responsible for a decent size utility/construction operation. I will make the similar bet I make my guys. You pay me $5 for every time a tether has saved someone and I will pay you $10,000 for every time it has hurt someone. Part of the wager is that competent sailors carry knives to cut themselves free from entanglement. Also that they use a proper tether rig that can release under load. With those two reasonable steps, the only time a tether would be fatal in a capsize, is if the wearer was unconscious. In that case you truly are in God's hands.

The issue with tethers --like seat belts, traffic vests and most other safety devices is the people who should use them. Their egos get in the way of accepting that one day they will screw up.

We all know a guy who says "Jim never wore a tether and he sailed into his 70's." Continuing that logic, "If Jim can do it, I can!".

That is like saying "Bruno smoked 3 cigars a day and never got cancer. So I am going to continue to smoke."

Just a contrary opinion.....

 

[Ed Lada]

Blanket statements about safety devices are just inappropriate.-----

In fact, we know that PFDs and tethers can be dangerous. Plenty of examples of people in PFDs in boats that capsize, they get trapped in the rig or under the hull and can't swim down against the flotation to get out, or does anyone remember the incident in Chi-Mac a few years ago when the deaths were attributed to being tethered to the boat when it went over and being unable to get the tether off?

Sorry I have to call bullshit. In my "day job" I am responsible for a decent size utility/construction operation. I will make the similar bet I make my guys. You pay me $5 for every time a tether has saved someone and I will pay you $10,000 for every time it has hurt someone. Part of the wager is that competent sailors carry knives to cut themselves free from entanglement. Also that they use a proper tether rig that can release under load. With those two reasonable steps, the only time a tether would be fatal in a capsize, is if the wearer was unconscious. In that case you truly are in God's hands.

The issue with tethers --like seat belts, traffic vests and most other safety devices is the people who should use them. Their egos get in the way of accepting that one day they will screw up.

We all know a guy who says "Jim never wore a tether and he sailed into his 70's." Continuing that logic, "If Jim can do it, I can!".

That is like saying "Bruno smoked 3 cigars a day and never got cancer. So I am going to continue to smoke."

Just a contrary opinion.....

+1