Bad Times in Mobile

[Crash]

The difference is laws make the gov't responsible for you...

No law makes you responsible for you..,

Which do you choose?

 

[Snore]

Crash

You have me confused. Laws NEVER make the gov responsible for me. If so we would have no murders.

I always responsible for me..... Even when doing 100 in a 70.

 

[LMI]

Blanket statements about safety devices are just inappropriate.-----

In fact, we know that PFDs and tethers can be dangerous. Plenty of examples of people in PFDs in boats that capsize, they get trapped in the rig or under the hull and can't swim down against the flotation to get out, or does anyone remember the incident in Chi-Mac a few years ago when the deaths were attributed to being tethered to the boat when it went over and being unable to get the tether off?

Sorry I have to call bullshit. In my "day job" I am responsible for a decent size utility/construction operation. I will make the similar bet I make my guys. You pay me $5 for every time a tether has saved someone and I will pay you $10,000 for every time it has hurt someone. Part of the wager is that competent sailors carry knives to cut themselves free from entanglement. Also that they use a proper tether rig that can release under load. With those two reasonable steps, the only time a tether would be fatal in a capsize, is if the wearer was unconscious. In that case you truly are in God's hands.

The issue with tethers --like seat belts, traffic vests and most other safety devices is the people who should use them. Their egos get in the way of accepting that one day they will screw up.

We all know a guy who says "Jim never wore a tether and he sailed into his 70's." Continuing that logic, "If Jim can do it, I can!".

That is like saying "Bruno smoked 3 cigars a day and never got cancer. So I am going to continue to smoke."

Just a contrary opinion.....

Some logic and clear thinking on SA! Plus one to you both.

Crash

You have me confused. Laws NEVER make the gov responsible for me. If so we would have no murders.

I always responsible for me..... Even when doing 100 in a 70.

 

[Bruno]

Try wearing fall arrest next time you are cutting and stacking a roof or laying out top plate. Sure some think that all plates go up premarked and all roofs should be prefab trusses but thats in a tract housing world. And I have fallen off a few, and been injured by it, it happens, not macho just part of the job. And if you thinks thats stupid or foolhardy then try paying your carpenters more for hazard.

Which brings up moral hazard, its well documented that people tend to drive faster and more recklessly when they feel safer in their cars. If a guy is worried about falling then he is more careful, or he just doesnt belong up there. We used to be selective about who we allowed to work above us. See working high steel etc. those were (and some still are) elite trade jobs that were hard to get into. Like being a topman on a square rigger.

Nostalgia for the bad old days? Maybe but there were alot of things right about it too. And I hate wearing a jacket when trapping, for the abovementioned reasons, but I always wear a wet or drysuit sailing a wet boat in cold water with high risk of immersion for warmth and buoyancy. Too amny morons out there who expect to be insulated from the consequences of their moroncy.

 

[Hobie Anarchy]

Too amny morons out there who expect to be insulated from the consequences of their moroncy.

Really? Spell much? PUI?

Sorry, but I wear a PFD every time I'm on the water, especially when I'm trapping out. (May not be a USCG Approved PFD, but that's another story.) I've gone off the side way too many times to think that I'm invincible. You're just in denial.

It should be known that ALL of the catamaran sailors in Mobile made it through the storm without serious injury - probably because they were wearing PFDs when they were separated from their boats.

 

[Ed Lada]

Try wearing fall arrest next time you are cutting and stacking a roof or laying out top plate. Sure some think that all plates go up premarked and all roofs should be prefab trusses but thats in a tract housing world. And I have fallen off a few, and been injured by it, it happens, not macho just part of the job. And if you thinks thats stupid or foolhardy then try paying your carpenters more for hazard.

Which brings up moral hazard, its well documented that people tend to drive faster and more recklessly when they feel safer in their cars. If a guy is worried about falling then he is more careful, or he just doesnt belong up there. We used to be selective about who we allowed to work above us. See working high steel etc. those were (and some still are) elite trade jobs that were hard to get into. Like being a topman on a square rigger.

Nostalgia for the bad old days? Maybe but there were alot of things right about it too. And I hate wearing a jacket when trapping, for the abovementioned reasons, but I always wear a wet or drysuit sailing a wet boat in cold water with high risk of immersion for warmth and buoyancy. Too amny morons out there who expect to be insulated from the consequences of their moroncy.

Apparently you are a case in point.

 

[Crash]

Crash

You have me confused. Laws NEVER make the gov responsible for me. If so we would have no murders.

I always responsible for me..... Even when doing 100 in a 70.[/quote

That's a good point, and the world would be a better place if everyone followed your example.

But we tend not to do that. In this case, a number of people made what turned out to be bad decisions with regard to severe weather in Mobile. Instead of saying "the reason some people died was because they made poor choices" many on this thread want to take that decision (and therefore the responsibility) out of my (or your) hands, and mandate that you and your crew wear a PFD regardless. How does that approach foster and encourage people being responsible for themselves and their actions? How does that approach not undermine society holding it's members responsible for their actions and choices?

 

[Snore]

Crash

Okay now I understand and agree with your statement.

The bottom line is the hacked line from the safety meetings still holds, "safety is everyone's responsibility".

 

[Bruno]

Try wearing fall arrest next time you are cutting and stacking a roof or laying out top plate. Sure some think that all plates go up premarked and all roofs should be prefab trusses but thats in a tract housing world. And I have fallen off a few, and been injured by it, it happens, not macho just part of the job. And if you thinks thats stupid or foolhardy then try paying your carpenters more for hazard.

Which brings up moral hazard, its well documented that people tend to drive faster and more recklessly when they feel safer in their cars. If a guy is worried about falling then he is more careful, or he just doesnt belong up there. We used to be selective about who we allowed to work above us. See working high steel etc. those were (and some still are) elite trade jobs that were hard to get into. Like being a topman on a square rigger.

Nostalgia for the bad old days? Maybe but there were alot of things right about it too. And I hate wearing a jacket when trapping, for the abovementioned reasons, but I always wear a wet or drysuit sailing a wet boat in cold water with high risk of immersion for warmth and buoyancy. Too amny morons out there who expect to be insulated from the consequences of their moroncy.

Apparently you are a case in point.

http://www.howtosay.co.in/pronounce/moroncy-in-english/

 

[Ed Lada]

Try wearing fall arrest next time you are cutting and stacking a roof or laying out top plate. Sure some think that all plates go up premarked and all roofs should be prefab trusses but thats in a tract housing world. And I have fallen off a few, and been injured by it, it happens, not macho just part of the job. And if you thinks thats stupid or foolhardy then try paying your carpenters more for hazard.

Which brings up moral hazard, its well documented that people tend to drive faster and more recklessly when they feel safer in their cars. If a guy is worried about falling then he is more careful, or he just doesnt belong up there. We used to be selective about who we allowed to work above us. See working high steel etc. those were (and some still are) elite trade jobs that were hard to get into. Like being a topman on a square rigger.

Nostalgia for the bad old days? Maybe but there were alot of things right about it too. And I hate wearing a jacket when trapping, for the abovementioned reasons, but I always wear a wet or drysuit sailing a wet boat in cold water with high risk of immersion for warmth and buoyancy. Too amny morons out there who expect to be insulated from the consequences of their moroncy.

Apparently you are a case in point.

http://www.howtosay.co.in/pronounce/moroncy-in-english/

That's very nice but my point was apparently you are one of those morons. You freely admit you have fallen off of houses and been injured yet you continue to eschew safety equipment. Falling and getting injured and possibly killed is not normally considered to be "just part of the job". The only job I know of where getting injured or killed is a normal part of the job is the military in comabt. What will it take to get you learn, a traumatic brain injury, paralysis? Sounds like the behavior of a moron that expects to be insulated from the consequences of his stupidity.

 

[Bruno]

Some jobs are dangerous, if you don't like it then don't do it. Little falls prevent big falls, no hazard no attention. Train yourself for the greater exposures by building up through lesser, just like climbing. If you don't get it then you don't get it, some die in bed, some don't.

 

[Ed Lada]

Some jobs are dangerous, if you don't like it then don't do it. Little falls prevent big falls, no hazard no attention. Train yourself for the greater exposures by building up through lesser, just like climbing. If you don't get it then you don't get it, some die in bed, some don't.

You're life dude, we all get to make choices. Well, less and less choices but...

 

[Kirwan]

Interesting split on the theory of Darwinism;

Is Bruno making choices that one day will get him killed?

or...

Is Bruno 'fitter' because he has survived multiple small accidents?

 

[Bruno]

I wear all the shit: masks, respirators, tyvek, coveralls, gloves gloves gloves, eye protection, ear protection, etc all day long, just spent 3 weeks wearing it 12 hrs a day. No one is tougher than chemistry, thats a fact jack. And I insist and encourage my workers to wear all the shit I provide for their work. Its the law and its good responsible practice. Mixing aerosil, wear a mask. Mixing resin or paint, glove up. SOP.

And if I am on a window ledge or icefall or limbing a tree or on deck in a gale yes sir please let me clip in. But if I am stacking a roof or something where fall arrest impedes my safe activity then no thanks. The problem now is you don't get to choose. If you want to wear a pfd then great but if I make an informed choice that I am better off without one in certain circumstances then I want to be able to do that.

Eg, duck diving a wave no pfd. Big wave surfer wipeout, 1 minute holdout, now they wear pfds. There's a difference.

Paddling offshore soon we will be required to wear pfds, even though they restrict you. When you lose your boat and have to swim to get it back its better not to have one on. When you lose your boat and have to swim ashore and get tired, its better to have one on. Once you have experienced both then you know when you want one and when you don't. Thats why little falls prevent big falls, its how you learn your limits. In the course of learning some loss is inevitable, there are no guarantees. And its better to be lucky than good.

 

[SamsDad]

I still want to know who ran down 4G and what their story was.

 

[Glenn McCarthy]

Rescuers of 4G receiving the US Sailing Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal this weekend -

http://www.ussailing.org/hanson_dauphin/

 

[billy backstay]

Some jobs are dangerous, if you don't like it then don't do it. Little falls prevent big falls, no hazard no attention. Train yourself for the greater exposures by building up through lesser, just like climbing. If you don't get it then you don't get it, some die in bed, some don't.

I've climbed the foremast of an oil barge without clipping in. Once. That was enough for me, even though I didn't fall.

My cousin is an accomplished square rigger sailor. He has brought in canvas (t'gallant) in a gale, at night, without any tethering. Frankly I am in awe of him.

Just because it is fun to watch:

Give me vertigo just watching that!!! And to think I've been in a bos'ns chair up 100 feet in a good swell, trying with one hand not to get my teeth bashed out, and the other one to fix something on the masthead. Not any more, that;s fer sure!!

 

[bloodshot]

fascinating article about this event: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/racing-storm-story-mobile-bay-sailing-disaster-180963686/

 

[TQA]

What was amazing to me was the way some people paid no heed to the big black nasty squall line heading their way.

On the video clips there was no attempt made to shorten sail or get the life jackets out. 

 

[bloodshot]

I've done a complete turnabout on PFDs, though it took some time..  raised as a kid who, if you passed your swim test, could sail without worn PFDs.  Then sailed keelboats with no PFDs ever...wasn't even a consideration.  then later in life, sailing with one if on the bow, then if on the mast.  now its basically 100%