despacio avenue
Super Anarchist
What is the status of 11th Hour Racing's 2 IMOCAs after TOR (which is only using one of them)? Would one or both of them be available for use for the VG?
Banque Populaire dropping ClaCla
- Thread starter wonderbrom
- Start date
I appreciate some of the Marie Tabarly's words.You should be careful, Eric's daughter is now raising her voice in favor of your Clarisse sweety:
Especially :
"I would not mention the name of the IMOCA currently racing in the Ocean Race who had a "good looking girl" on board with a large Instagram community rather than another more competent."
"So women are used, for marketing moves, for their "freshness" (Guess who is crowned Sports Strategies Grand Prix in 2021?! After their athlete has snagged a 12th place in the Vendée Globe?)"
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wildbirdtoo
Member
Actually both of them are in the Ocean race. 11th hr Alaka'i (which was Hugo Boss 2015) was sold and is now Guyot environment. 11th hour are on Malama (the newer one, built for them).
I assume Sebastien Simon will be aiming for the Vendee. Not sure if 11th hour plan to do it.
ERRATA!!! edited to add....Benjamin Dutreaux (not Seb Simon)bought Alaka'i (now Guyot) and is aiming at the Vendee
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Marie Tabarly : "For the media we must smile, be beautiful, bright, open, radiant, real champagne bubbles..."
You have no clue of what you talking about.
Scillyjosh
Member
If bp cared so much about the win they would have a bought a her a new boat. Automatic qualification, done.
In french media some leaks appeared.
Between Cremer and BP sailing team, "there were tensions since a long time"...
And now if she accept to come back (as heads of BP Bank Group wish it strongly), articles state that it will be on her own terms, and she will be in the position to choose with who she will want to work.
Between Cremer and BP sailing team, "there were tensions since a long time"...
And now if she accept to come back (as heads of BP Bank Group wish it strongly), articles state that it will be on her own terms, and she will be in the position to choose with who she will want to work.
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staysail
Super Anarchist
- 2,164
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Let's think about this problem of unfair treatment of women who want to qualify to race the Vendee Globe and secure a position on the start line.
Consider a hypothetical partnership of a woman who is an experienced Imoca sailor who has had a previous good result as a finisher in a previous edition of the Vendee Globe race, and her partner, a man who has also had equivalent experience and good prior result. Maybe the woman even had a better prior finish than her man?
The organizers make no particular provision for women, neither in the qualification requirements nor in the race.
There are no places on the start line reserved for women.
Both of the two partners want to enter the next edition.
A 4 year period is considered for competitors to meet qualification requirements and secure a start line place.
The two partners wish to have a child during the qualification period of 4 years. Not unreasonable for a young couple of professional racing sailors who earn their livings by professional racing.
The man contributes at the start of the childbearing process with a participation that may take 2 minutes after which his work is done. He has a short nap to recover from his exertions, then he has 4 years (minus the two minutes!), in which to qualify and secure a start line place.
His partner, after he has made her pregnant with their child, has a more time-consuming and more physically arduous task. She is handicapped by the childbearing process because for 9 months she is carrying the child of their "equal sailor/competitor" parnership. It impacts her physical abilities as her body must support two lives for 9 month. Her male partner does not carry the child. His physical condition is unchanged.
For the 9 months following the birth the woman will normally have to devote continuous months unable to sail thousands of ocean miles alone, because she has to breastfeed the baby of the partners.
Her male partner does not breastfeed their baby. He is incapable of breastfeeding but can sail ocean miles to his heart's content!
To qualify both of the partners must prove the basic ability of themselves and their boat to safely sail alone offshore for weeks at a time. That requirement is sensible for both and is a basic safety consideration. The woman can achieve this requirement with ease in the time available.
There are a limited number of available places on the start line. The organizers, without regard for the differences between women and men, decide to favor competitors who have sailed more qualifying miles during the 4 year period.
Considering the man and woman in our example partnership, both have decided to have a child.
Is the man handicapped by having a child? Is the woman handicapped by having a child? The answer is obvious. The woman is handicapped by about one and a half years out of the available four as compared with her male partner.
Conclusion. The process for allocating places on an oversubscribed start line unfairly disadvantages women, unfairly favors men, and actively discourages women sailors from having children.
The simple answer is that the start line should have 20 places reserved for men and 20 places reserved for women. If there are insufficient qualified people of each sex to fill the allocated 20 places then spare places should be allocated to people of either sex who have completed the safety oriented and non-sexist qualifications by a "draw", a random selection process. This would be fair to all parties.
Consider a hypothetical partnership of a woman who is an experienced Imoca sailor who has had a previous good result as a finisher in a previous edition of the Vendee Globe race, and her partner, a man who has also had equivalent experience and good prior result. Maybe the woman even had a better prior finish than her man?
The organizers make no particular provision for women, neither in the qualification requirements nor in the race.
There are no places on the start line reserved for women.
Both of the two partners want to enter the next edition.
A 4 year period is considered for competitors to meet qualification requirements and secure a start line place.
The two partners wish to have a child during the qualification period of 4 years. Not unreasonable for a young couple of professional racing sailors who earn their livings by professional racing.
The man contributes at the start of the childbearing process with a participation that may take 2 minutes after which his work is done. He has a short nap to recover from his exertions, then he has 4 years (minus the two minutes!), in which to qualify and secure a start line place.
His partner, after he has made her pregnant with their child, has a more time-consuming and more physically arduous task. She is handicapped by the childbearing process because for 9 months she is carrying the child of their "equal sailor/competitor" parnership. It impacts her physical abilities as her body must support two lives for 9 month. Her male partner does not carry the child. His physical condition is unchanged.
For the 9 months following the birth the woman will normally have to devote continuous months unable to sail thousands of ocean miles alone, because she has to breastfeed the baby of the partners.
Her male partner does not breastfeed their baby. He is incapable of breastfeeding but can sail ocean miles to his heart's content!
To qualify both of the partners must prove the basic ability of themselves and their boat to safely sail alone offshore for weeks at a time. That requirement is sensible for both and is a basic safety consideration. The woman can achieve this requirement with ease in the time available.
There are a limited number of available places on the start line. The organizers, without regard for the differences between women and men, decide to favor competitors who have sailed more qualifying miles during the 4 year period.
Considering the man and woman in our example partnership, both have decided to have a child.
Is the man handicapped by having a child? Is the woman handicapped by having a child? The answer is obvious. The woman is handicapped by about one and a half years out of the available four as compared with her male partner.
Conclusion. The process for allocating places on an oversubscribed start line unfairly disadvantages women, unfairly favors men, and actively discourages women sailors from having children.
The simple answer is that the start line should have 20 places reserved for men and 20 places reserved for women. If there are insufficient qualified people of each sex to fill the allocated 20 places then spare places should be allocated to people of either sex who have completed the safety oriented and non-sexist qualifications by a "draw", a random selection process. This would be fair to all parties.
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Clarisse's statement from 3 days ago:
(Beware, machine translation)
web.facebook.com
BANQUE POPULAIRE DECIDES TO LEAVE ME BEHIND
I gave birth to a little girl in November 2022. Although nothing obliged me to do so, I had informed my sponsor Banque Populaire in February 2021 of my plans for a child. They have nevertheless chosen me for this new Vendée Globe and have communicated our mutual commitment in the autumn of 2021.
I learned last Friday that Banque Populaire had finally decided to replace me. By their decision, and despite my constant desire, I will not be at the start of the 2024 Vendée Globe.
The rules of the Vendée Globe for the 2024 edition impose on all skippers a competition based on the number of miles sailed in the race. On this criterion, I have of course fallen behind the other competitors at the start, this maternity having prevented me from being present on the qualifying races for a year.
Today Banque Populaire decided that this represented a "risk" for them that they did not want to run.
I am shocked, other projects launched much more recently continue without a hitch. I had two full seasons and four transatlantic races left to get back to my level, and I was determined to finish my rehabilitation as soon as possible.
But for Banque Populaire it would be "letting fate choose for them", while they "owe it to themselves" to be at the start of the Vendée Globe. They are ready to assume the risk of a giant trimaran, and all the natural, technical and human hazards associated with ocean racing, but obviously not that of motherhood.
If ocean racing exists today, it is because sponsors choose it as a means of communication and use it to tell beautiful sporting stories and therefore, at first, human stories. I am completely baffled by the story that this sponsor has chosen to tell today: "The Vendée Globe, at all costs.
The Vendée Globe organization is also content to be "sorry for me" but "can't do anything". However, it is the organization that writes the rules. Remember that four years ago, I would have been automatically selected because I finished the previous edition. Let's remember that 13 new boats (1/3 of the fleet) benefit from an exemption to be automatically selected for the next Vendée Globe in the name of supporting innovation.
The rules of a competition are supposed to guarantee fairness and sportsmanship. Today, it is clear that the rules chosen by the Vendée Globe forbid a woman to have a child, even if she is a recognized sportswoman, who already finished the previous edition. In the 21st century, who would believe that such rules would be fair? It is easy to deplore the low number of women on the starting line.
I would like to thank the people who supported me and who will recognize themselves. I am determined to return to sailing, under the colors of a trusted partner whose humanitarian convictions I share. My passion for sailing remains intact, and I will be able to quickly overcome the disillusionment that I am experiencing today.
I think especially of all the women, sportswomen and others, who are going through similar difficulties without having this opportunity to speak out. What does equality mean for women? To behave in every way like men and therefore especially not to be pregnant? If I speak out today, it is not for revenge, to attract attention or to be pitied, but to provoke reflection, and in the hope of making our society progress.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
(Beware, machine translation)
Clarisse sur l'Atlantique
Clarisse sur l'Atlantique. 62,705 likes · 48,664 talking about this. Après une 2nde place sur la Mini Transat 2017, me voici à l'assaut de nouvelles aventures maritimes !
web.facebook.com
BANQUE POPULAIRE DECIDES TO LEAVE ME BEHIND
I gave birth to a little girl in November 2022. Although nothing obliged me to do so, I had informed my sponsor Banque Populaire in February 2021 of my plans for a child. They have nevertheless chosen me for this new Vendée Globe and have communicated our mutual commitment in the autumn of 2021.
I learned last Friday that Banque Populaire had finally decided to replace me. By their decision, and despite my constant desire, I will not be at the start of the 2024 Vendée Globe.
The rules of the Vendée Globe for the 2024 edition impose on all skippers a competition based on the number of miles sailed in the race. On this criterion, I have of course fallen behind the other competitors at the start, this maternity having prevented me from being present on the qualifying races for a year.
Today Banque Populaire decided that this represented a "risk" for them that they did not want to run.
I am shocked, other projects launched much more recently continue without a hitch. I had two full seasons and four transatlantic races left to get back to my level, and I was determined to finish my rehabilitation as soon as possible.
But for Banque Populaire it would be "letting fate choose for them", while they "owe it to themselves" to be at the start of the Vendée Globe. They are ready to assume the risk of a giant trimaran, and all the natural, technical and human hazards associated with ocean racing, but obviously not that of motherhood.
If ocean racing exists today, it is because sponsors choose it as a means of communication and use it to tell beautiful sporting stories and therefore, at first, human stories. I am completely baffled by the story that this sponsor has chosen to tell today: "The Vendée Globe, at all costs.
The Vendée Globe organization is also content to be "sorry for me" but "can't do anything". However, it is the organization that writes the rules. Remember that four years ago, I would have been automatically selected because I finished the previous edition. Let's remember that 13 new boats (1/3 of the fleet) benefit from an exemption to be automatically selected for the next Vendée Globe in the name of supporting innovation.
The rules of a competition are supposed to guarantee fairness and sportsmanship. Today, it is clear that the rules chosen by the Vendée Globe forbid a woman to have a child, even if she is a recognized sportswoman, who already finished the previous edition. In the 21st century, who would believe that such rules would be fair? It is easy to deplore the low number of women on the starting line.
I would like to thank the people who supported me and who will recognize themselves. I am determined to return to sailing, under the colors of a trusted partner whose humanitarian convictions I share. My passion for sailing remains intact, and I will be able to quickly overcome the disillusionment that I am experiencing today.
I think especially of all the women, sportswomen and others, who are going through similar difficulties without having this opportunity to speak out. What does equality mean for women? To behave in every way like men and therefore especially not to be pregnant? If I speak out today, it is not for revenge, to attract attention or to be pitied, but to provoke reflection, and in the hope of making our society progress.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Isabelle Autissier, former sailor, denounces the eviction of Clarisse Crémer from the Vendée Globe because of her maternity
"I don't know if it's sexism but it's just intolerable"
Too bad I have no idea what they are saying.
Glad Banque Populaire is getting all the media they deserve!!!!
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Imoca class skippers support Clarisse Crémer
Pip Hare: “We still have a lot to do and Clarisse's case will only stimulate us”
“I am shocked by the treatment reserved for Clarisse Crémer. During the last edition of the Vendée Globe, we had the largest number of competitors (six women were entered, NDR). Barely two years later, we find ourselves in a situation where the qualification criteria mean that a woman on maternity leave is considered too risky to qualify for the race. I am happy that my fellow skippers and the IMOCA class are taking this situation very seriously.I love this sport because men and women compete on equal footing, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I thought we had made enough progress as sailors – and as female athletes in general – to be accepted and take our place at the top of the board. I was wrong. We still have a lot to do and Clarisse's case will only stimulate us. »
Sam Davies: “I will do my best so that women can pursue their goals”
“I am a wife, mother and skipper. Sponsors who support mums/skippers exist. I will do my best within the Imoca class so that women can pursue their goals and that sponsors no longer hesitate to support them. »
Conrad Colman: “I am disappointed that Banque Populaire did not have the courage to support an extremely talented sailor”
“I support Clarisse. I am disappointed that Banque Populaire did not have the courage to support an extremely talented sailor who did a lot to rehabilitate their image four years ago. The hunt for qualifying miles is tight for anyone preparing for the Vendée Globe, but Clarisse had everything to succeed. Entry is not guaranteed for anyone, it is earned. But it's a shame that a sponsor, let alone such an experienced sponsor, would take away the chance to qualify because she wanted a family in addition to a profession.I hope all this bad press highlights the injustice of the situation and forces the sponsor, the IMOCA class and the Vendée Globe to find a solution for Clarisse, and also to avoid future problems. We have a wonderful sport where women and men race in the same conditions on the water. Let us work sincerely to ensure that the structure of our sport allows for the same equality on land. For reference, the people who made these rules have kids and careers, let's work so athletes can too. »
Alexia Barrier: "It was precisely the time to show the example of a young mother who is once again embarking on the Vendée Globe"
“I am of course very disappointed but not really surprised or shocked. Such mishaps happen daily to many women on this planet. It was precisely the moment to show the example of a young mother who is once again embarking on the Vendée Globe. It's all the most disappointing since Clarisse's participation in the 2020 edition with a big sponsor had sent a positive signal because ultimately, few women have the financial means to win in ocean racing. Often, we have budgets to participate and not to perform.
Even a project that has everything to please like that of Clarisse does not manage to exist. It's a bad signal for diversity and sport in general. However, we have plenty of examples of athletes who have become mothers and who have won, for example Laure Manaudou or Charline Picon. Maybe we don't know everything, but in any case it's very clumsy on the part of Clarisse's sponsor, and super disappointing. »
Eric Bellion: “We need women”
“I still can't get over Banque Populaire's crazy decision. How could they part with Clarisse? It's not the first time that a skipper has been dropped by his sponsor in our profession and it certainly won't be the last. That's the game. The reasons are often related to a difference of vision or a lack of results. But how in 2023 to separate from your browser on the pretext of her maternity? It's revolting. I am 100% with Clarisse. I am also 100% with the organization of the Vendée Globe. The sponsor cannot, in my opinion, blame the rules for justifying its lack of solidarity with a member of its team. It's his choice as he assumes it!Incidentally what a great story BP could have told supporting Clarisse through thick and thin while provoking constructive debate in the offshore racing world. Let's move on...
The Vendée Globe rules are not perfect and are meant to be changed. We have all understood that we absolutely have to improve. We are one of the sports that conveys the most "human". We must therefore be irreproachable and even precursors in the way we treat the women and men of our adventures.
So, let's work with Clarisse to help her as much as possible now and change our rules tomorrow so that more women join us. But also so that young dads can take better care of their babies. And let's go even further by adapting the itinerary of foreign skippers so that they can join us in large numbers. We need different skipper profiles to continue to innovate and make people dream. This work is already underway in offshore racing and we need to accelerate. It is an exciting challenge to achieve together. »
Alan Roura: "We are losing an incredible representative of female talent that we want to promote and develop in the future"
“I am still in shock. Like everyone else, I am very disappointed for Clarisse whom I fully support, and in total incomprehension. As a young dad, I myself missed races and ran others leaving my daughter on the ground, very young, without this having any impact on my career. I therefore have great difficulty in understanding the choice of its sponsor, which seems quite simply unfair to me, but also totally out of step with current societal issues.
This discrimination of women, voluntary or not, direct or indirect, is untenable and must continue to be at the heart of the debates in our sport, and more broadly in our society. Sailing, ocean racing and the IMOCA Globe Series class aim to convey values and actions in favor of diversity and inclusion. However, we are losing an incredible representative of female talent that we want to promote and develop in the future. This is really not the message we want to convey to the younger generations.
I am also sad and angry that it had to come to this for the debate to start and for things to change. It is up to us to finally wake up and ensure that his situation is taken into account and brings about changes for the future. »
Virgulino Ferreira
Super Anarchist
Man, this gigantic fuck up is going to be taught in business school! A lesson on how to fuck up your marketing and PR so badly that you instantly become a villain all over the world!
It's in the news all over the world. And the gist of it is here, in the very conservative and old The Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk
It's in the news all over the world. And the gist of it is here, in the very conservative and old The Times:
Clarisse Crémer: sailor dropped by sponsor after having baby
A popular French yachtswoman will miss one of the world’s most eagerly awaited races after being discarded by her team sponsor after having a baby.Clarisse Crém
www.thetimes.co.uk
Isn't it the purpose of the wild card to support a project not otherwise qualified that deserves it and would fall outside the qualification rules? Maybe they would need a couple of wild cards instead of one given the number of boats interested in starting, especially in an edition with some changes in the qualification criteria.
When a woman gets a sponsor just because she's a woman, nobody bats an eye.
When a woman loses her sponsor for obvious and objective reasons everybody looses their mind!
She came 5th non-foiler in the last edition, with ex-Macif. Not really top perf, isn't it?
When a woman loses her sponsor for obvious and objective reasons everybody looses their mind!
She came 5th non-foiler in the last edition, with ex-Macif. Not really top perf, isn't it?
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Scillyjosh
Member
5th fastest non foiler with a top non foiler boat (ex-macif).
I'm not saying she's not a good sailor, but do you all really think she got hired just because she was the best sailor that BP could recruit at the time?
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wonderbrom
Member
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- Thread starter
- #138
She got hired in expectation of good / very good performace TOGETHER with entertaining storytelling qualities.
you can't say that she didn't fulfil expectations in both terms. I'd say she excelled, thats why BP initially extended sponsorship.
Please.. its rubbish to bring up her 12th place as a reason zu drop her. If 12th wasnt good enough, they wouldn't have continued cooperation in the first place.
mathystuff
Super Anarchist
- 1,252
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That 12th place was also literally a womens world record.
Imagine being so sexist that you call a world record performance bad.
wonderbrom
Member
- 76
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- Thread starter
- #140
getting droppes by sponsors is daily business. Simon got dropped by arkea, who cares. But he didnt get dropped with some bullshit excuse that only applies to women. And that's the difference. If BP would state "we don't see Clarisse winning, that's why she has to go".. asshole-ish but totally legit.
