Basic flaw in H3000 wind instrument calibration?

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
I will be racing next summer on a boat with H3000 (herc perf) instruments and Expedition.

I have always felt that the wind calibration in H3000 system is basically flawed. The main reason is the lack of leeway adjustment in wind calculations. Instead there is emphasis on upwash, which should enter the calculations.

Most boats that I have raced have had fractional rig and the wind sensor on a vertical mast head unit 1 m above the top of the mast. I do not think there will be several degrees of upwash as B&G implies in their calibration procedure.

Last summer I had Nexus (NX2) instruments with Expedition. Expediton compensates for leeway when making the wind calculations. We had very precise TWA and TWD (no "twd tacking") readings on Expedition with no upwash compensation on NX2 system. (some problem with HPC compass, but that is already discussed on this forum).

 

Unluckily B&G is very vague providing information on how the actual wind calculations are made. It states, that heeling is considered when calculating TWA and TWS for geometric error. No statement about TWD. No statement about leeway compensation.

B&G also speak for regular wind calibrations to get the instruments show valid readings. The problem is that the beans and the potatoes get mixed. I would prefer to calibrate only for the MHU offset. If the system can handle leeway compensation, you don't need anything else in non-shear, regular gradient conditions.

When shear and unusual gradient are present I would prefer to enter them separately in the system and have the compensations logged for later analysis. (Perhaps later another post on how to deal with shear).

Am I missing something or is B&G having the flaw in their way of wind calibration? I can deal with it in Expedition, but would still like to know.

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
Thanks PhonyHRF for sharing your experiences.

Nick White states in the Expedition user manual:

"Please note that True wind angle displayed in Expedition and StripChart includes the effects of leeway wherever possible. Polar data from designers generally present TWA in this manner (TWA to the boat's centerline plus leeway equals TWA track) as do Ockam systems. B&G is also likely to migrate to this convention in the future. For systems that do not add in the effect of leeway into TWA (B&G, Silva, etc.), leeway is added to the TWA received from the instrument system wherever possible (Italics added). There are several benefits to this. For example, calculations of VMG have to include leeway and it makes the optimal routing function easier to use. This is why you may notice that Twa as reported by Expedition may be a few degrees wider than Twa reported by the instruments.".

 

If I get it right from Nicks text, B&G is not using leeway adjustments in wind calculations and leeway will be added to the data from H3000 system inside Expedition.

With Nexus NX2 system I could see 3-4 deg difference in TWA comparing the NX2 display and Expedition number box. That was equal to the amount of leeway. I think it will be the same in B&G H3000 unless I send "corrected TWA" to the displays via external channels.

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
PhonyHRF,

your suggestion sounds good. Unfortunately I have to wait until last part of April, for the ice to go away in the Baltic. If you live in warmer climate, please let me know how it went.

I will probably send a note to the B&G guys about their calculations. WTP2 user guide had a nice diagram how the calculation goes.

 

Expedition

Member
329
23
Hello,

As I understand it, H690/790/2000 and H3000 do not include leeway in TWA. This is neither a good nor a bad thing, it is just the way it is treated.

so twd = hdg + twa

Most other systems that have a leeway estimate (B&G wtp, Bravo, Ockam, Cosworth) do include it in TWA. In this case you need to remove the remove the leeway estimate from twa to compute twd as above. I believe Nexus does not include leeway in twa.

Or you could use course = hdg - leeway, but either way it reduces to the same thing.

The main reason we include leeway in twa is that it makes things a lot simpler later on - laylines, optimal routing etc.

Also, most (all?) VPPs include leeway in the values. For reference, a couple of interesting VPP values for leeway at tws=12kt:

Farr 40 3.4

Bene 36.7 4.1

Bene 44.7 3.5

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
Hello,

As I understand it, H690/790/2000 and H3000 do not include leeway in TWA. This is neither a good nor a bad thing, it is just the way it is treated.

so twd = hdg + twa

Most other systems that have a leeway estimate (B&G wtp, Bravo, Ockam, Cosworth) do include it in TWA. In this case you need to remove the remove the leeway estimate from twa to compute twd as above. I believe Nexus does not include leeway in twa.

Or you could use course = hdg - leeway, but either way it reduces to the same thing.

The main reason we include leeway in twa is that it makes things a lot simpler later on - laylines, optimal routing etc.

Also, most (all?) VPPs include leeway in the values. For reference, a couple of interesting VPP values for leeway at tws=12kt:

Farr 40 3.4

Bene 36.7 4.1

Bene 44.7 3.5

Hi Nick and thank you for the input.

Correct me, if I am wrong, but I see that the lack of leeway compensation while calculating TWA and especially TWD a major problem. It will cause error (TWD tacking 2*leeway) in TWD calculations when tacking. B&G H3000 try to correct this by TWA correction table attributing to "upwash" or what ever. I find this barking at the wrong tree as the leeway is the cause of the error and easily corrected by taking leeway into calculations.

If I get it right there are five major sources of error in wind calculations when the MHU is situated well over non-turning mast top (no wind shear, average gradient):

MHU offset (mechanical)

MWA (measured wind angle at MHU) geometric error caused by healing (compensated in H&G hercules and herc. performance processors, also in Nexus)

Leeway (not compensated by H3000 processors or Nexus)

Boat speed errors

Compass offset error and especially non-zero deviation table

All the above can be calibrated in Expedition, when needed. You should know, how the instrument system is doing the calculations so that you don't over compensate it in Expedition (or other tactical software). It is unfortunate that he companies are so reluctant to give away exact information of their calculations (at least B&G and Nexus).

I have found that upwash is not usually a great problem with highly situated MHU. How do you see it?

 

kwelch

Anarchist
630
0
Having been lurking for a few days I decided to take a look at my B&G H3000 Motion manual - Page 82 shows you how to enter the leeway coefficient, so I think it is safe to assume that the main processor has this information available to them. Page 101 of the manual states that leeway is incorporated into the Course (CSE) as it is a combination of heading & leeway. Page 105 says that dead reckoning positions include leeway. Page 113 describes how you can display the leeway angle and turn leeway calibration for wind on & off (I assume they mean TWA but I am not sure?). Page 239 of the manual also documents how leeway can be damped.

The net-net of this would lead me to believe that leeway IS LIKELY incorporated into TWA & TWD in B&G, but to be honest I haven't really checked into this in great detail. At the next chance I get I am going to play with the K value and see if it does anything...

 
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kwelch

Anarchist
630
0
I agree with you that the manual doesn't always reflect what is actually happening - I will see if I can track this down through my contacts at B&G and see what they say. In the meantime, if this is true what is one supposed to do -- ignore the TWA and TWD data from the B&G and use Expedition to output your own channels for TWA and TWD, etc...

Unless I am missing something, for most grand prix type yachts leeway could be between 2-3 degrees close hauled upwind resulting in a major instrument problem if you don't take this into account...

 

kwelch

Anarchist
630
0
Regarding the Expedition tags, with the latest B&G firmware (can't remember the specific version) and the latest version of Expedition (8.0.3 if I remember) sending tags seems to work pretty well on my H3000 Motion system - so much so that I have started using this feature more. I will PM you a little later with my contact info - it would nice to be able to converse with someone who is using B&G intensely...

 

kwelch

Anarchist
630
0
This didn't come through very well - is there a way you could re-submit this post so that we could read it?

 

Heriberto

Super Anarchist
PhonyHRF said:
hey, if you have contacts can you ask them to fix the display bugs so they do not freeze when you send Expedition tags? and if you have some serious contacts can you PM me please? i have a pretty significant amount of documented bugs in the H3K platform.

Thanks!
Hey PhonyHRF, PM me if you want to unload your b&g stuff.

 

fchurtic

Member
75
0
Mistaken,

It would be great to know your firmware version....there appears to be a new version just out on the B&G website, but as usual B&G do not explain what the changes are...

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
Having been lurking for a few days I decided to take a look at my B&G H3000 Motion manual - Page 82 shows you how to enter the leeway coefficient, so I think it is safe to assume that the main processor has this information available to them. Page 101 of the manual states that leeway is incorporated into the Course (CSE) as it is a combination of heading & leeway. Page 105 says that dead reckoning positions include leeway. Page 113 describes how you can display the leeway angle and turn leeway calibration for wind on & off (I assume they mean TWA but I am not sure?). Page 239 of the manual also documents how leeway can be damped.

The net-net of this would lead me to believe that leeway IS LIKELY incorporated into TWA & TWD in B&G, but to be honest I haven't really checked into this in great detail. At the next chance I get I am going to play with the K value and see if it does anything...
Nice reading Mistaken,

I did not notice the important information on page 113 about turning the leeway calibration on wind on/off. It is still unclear what this actually means as there is no other text on the topic in the manual (that I could find with search functions).

Jorma

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
PhonyHRF said:
Not to be cynic, BUT the manual states quite a few things that should work one way, and don't…just like their support engineers at least they are consistent in one thing J

I tried different Kc values and did notice TWA and TWD direction changes which lead me to believe that it did take into account leeway BUT then I went out again and tried different Kc values from 0 to 45 (completely out of the norm) but did not see the variance following the Kc values which should had...

I tried to get an official answer on this from the B&G guys but never got them to…so until then, I will put $50 on Nick and 5cents in the manual and B&G.
PhonyHRF,

did you check, if you had the p. 113 switch (see above) on or not, when doing the experiments? Did you monitor the actual leeway reading when you changes K-value - did it change to something out of limits value?

Jorma

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
I would like to return to the upwash.

Has anyone information on upwash? How much of it can you expect on a 40 ft racer, fractional rig, while beating on 12kn wind and 1.2m vertical MHU? Is it possible to eliminate upwash totally by installing the MHU higher?

 
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johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
PhonyHRF,

have you estimated how much upwash you have when beating in about 12 kn wind (counting out leeway effects)?

The idea of having wind instruments lower, close to the deck, is interesting. I have thought it often.You could see those also on BMW-Oracle.

I think you could get better gradient estimates based on two TWS readings. For TWA, I think the flow is so much disturbed downstairs that you can not make accurate estimates of the "undisturbed wind field" outside effects of the boat. Perhaps you could use the lower TWS + TWA figures for trimming guides. Ideas?

 

johannula

Member
141
0
Finland
PhonyHRF,

I finally got the time to give you the answer I promised. The question was :"how to find the amount of upwash from the log data". I would expand this to other errors/corrections of TWD.

I am supposing a B&G (H3000) - Expedition system and that your boat speed, compass (especially deviation table) and MHU offset are well calibrated. I also suppose no strong currents and non-shear wind - otherwise it gets still more complicated. I will also not go into up-wash and TWS relationship for the same reason (although I should).

I am no pro-expert on this thing - so if some one can make it simpler (also with clearer language)- I will be pleased.

First find out the following as they were during the logging (details follow later):

A. What was calibrated in B&G and how they were done

B. How that was transferred into Expedition (some automatic transformations like leeway correction for TWA?)

C. What was calibrated and calculated in Expedition and how were they done

Then you should have an overview what is happening to your data from the sensor to the display and log. It can get quite complicated as you can do calibrations in the instuments system or in the tactical software - data might change in both systems and also while transferring between them. Things are also not so well documented (especially B&G) so there is also left room for speculation.

Once you have a clear idea of the above, you should start looking at the log.

The correctness of TWD and TWA; (upwash best seen while on beat)

1) TWD should be independent of the heading. When you tack the TWD should not "tack", it should remain stable. If "TWD tacking" is left after leeway compensation, the possible cause is upwash

2) When tacking the sum of TWA:s should match the tacking angle from the heading, if the TWA:s are leeway compensated. You can also use COG in non tidal conditions. If the sums do not match, this would be a place to look for the upwash - unfortunately you have to be very careful with the chain of calibrations described above.

3) Unsymmetrical TWA:s are mainly due to wind-shear and possibly MHU offset error. Upwash should be symmetric.

Finding the calibrations:

A. Inside B&G

- Look at the TWA correction table inside B&G (Hanbook p. 75). How does the first line (upwind) look like? As there should not bee leeway compensation inside B&G, this line should represent the correction of the combined effects of upwash and leeway (and something else?). Shear goes into MHU (MWA) offset correction (unfortunately).

B. Between B&G and Expedition

- I am not quite sure what happen here automatically without choosing variables on "Exp cals and calcs". If I get it right leeway correction for TWA is done automatically in certain systems (incl B&G H3000). Nick around?

C. Inside Expedition

- check table inside Expedition- Exp cals: "TWA". Are there some calibrations of TWA and have you been using them while recording your logs?

- check if TWA&TWS and TWD are checked in Exp Calcs (all the TWA/TWS calculations are made inside) Expedition and if I get it right it omits the TWA-correction table inside B&G as TWA/TWS calculations are done in Expedition.

With all this information you might grasp some ideas of how much upwash you have in your boat in certain conditions.

We are discussing in our team how to deal with the complexities described above. At the moment I favor an approach where most calculations/calibrations are done inside Expedition as I am not please the way B&G is mixing several things in one basket.

I think there is one correction you cannot turn off in B&G and that is the correction for error in MWA caused the heel of mast. You have to know, so you don't use it second time in Expedition.

I like the leeway correction for TWA in Expedition. I am quite unsure whether you need corrections for upwash at all, if you have a tall vertical bar for the MHU. I have not found any definitive data.

Shear and gradient I want to deal separately from other stuff and not get it mixed with MWA offset as in B&G. MWA offset is error in apparent wind, shear in true wind.

 

Joakim

Super Anarchist
1,484
116
Finland
I think it is very inaccurate to try to calculate upwash from past instrument data. I don't think 1.2 m MHU height is enough to totally get rid of upwash on a almost 20 m mast. Actually I think the forward pointing MHU may be as good on a beat, but clearly worse on a run (when you don't have upwash).

The upwash depends on your sailplan and how you use it. Trimming the sails, sail shape, the amount of roach etc. changes the upwash.

If I would like to find the amount of the upwash at the MHU, I would do one of the following:

1. Do some CFD calculations. Probably panel method is good enough. (Since you are Finnish, ask WB-Sails! They have many of those and can easily see the amount of upwash at different locations)

2. Do some wind tunnel testing. (Again ask WB-Sails! Though I don't know if they have measured the wind profile during the tests)

3. Use several or adjustable MHU's to measure AWA at different distances from the mast top.

Have you read this? http://www.avomeripurjehtijat.fi/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&Itemid=49&gid=156

 






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