Beneteau or Seascape 24 Question

[Newbee Racer]

Good day,

I am in the market to buy a day sailor/overnight camper for competitive lake sailing. (I currently race a Capri22) I am interested in First 24SE but many experienced keelboat sailors with dinghy experience at our yacht club keep telling me not to buy a boat without a traveler if I want to be competitive. They argue that wang-sheeting can not replace a proper traveler for good sail trim.

I could not find any 24SE groups on the internet to ask questions about traveler or no traveler for competitive racing so I decided to contact you.

Can you please help me understand why 24SE can still be a competitive option without a traveler.

Thank you.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Good day,

I am in the market to buy a day sailor/overnight camper for competitive lake sailing. (I currently race a Capri22) I am interested in First 24SE but many experienced keelboat sailors with dinghy experience at our yacht club keep telling me not to buy a boat without a traveler if I want to be competitive. They argue that wang-sheeting can not replace a proper traveler for good sail trim.

I could not find any 24SE groups on the internet to ask questions about traveler or no traveler for competitive racing so I decided to contact you.

Can you please help me understand why 24SE can still be a competitive option without a traveler.

Thank you.

Vang sheeting can be very effective for larger boats than the 24. However it has to be properly rigged and properly used. It's most likely that your friends are giving advice based on experience with the wrong thing.

First the sheet must be set up to pull the boom to centerline with a minimum of leech tension. That means either a wide/high bridle or a mainsheet hoop. Second, the vang must be set up so that it is easily adjustable from normal sailing position, not a little jammer swinging below the boom or right up against the base of the mast.

The ONLY benefit to a traveler is that you can ease/trim the main's angle of attack to the boat's centerline while holding leech tension constant. Why can't you do this with a vang (to maintain leech tension or twist) and sheet (to control the sail's angle)? You have to adjust the vang for best off-wind sailing anyway.

 

[BrightAyes]

I'd say the lack of traveler is least of your worries. reading that your coming from Capri 22 to a Seascape 24 tell me you're a newbie eager to go fast. I was you...40 years ago. Move from Cat 22 to Capri 25 then Melges 24. Huge jump in sailing between 22 and 24. You need to get a boat you can afford and use with ease. If the 24 allows you to ramp launch and that's important, hell with the traveler. Frankly the traveler is fine-tuning device. At this stage getting a fast boat, learning to trim/steer and crew training is paramount. The need for traveler should be about the last on your mind. IMHO.

 

[floater]

The ONLY benefit to a traveler is that you can ease/trim the main's angle of attack to the boat's centerline while holding leech tension constant.

with almost all travelers - the straight ones - this doesn't seem right. dropping the traveler changes main sheet tension, and hence leech tension / sail shape, because the traveler car's distance (its radius) from the gooseneck increases when you drop it.

there might be some exception to this rule - but it seems to me that the only geometrically correct traveler is a curved one. the fact that almost all sailors, and builders (aside from the big multis), seem to accept the straight traveler as a given strikes me as a bizarre anachronism, if not just plain lazy, because they simply don't seem to work as advertised.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here - but at least on every boat I've sailed - the traveler is a travesty.

 

[Steam Flyer]

with almost all travelers - the straight ones - this doesn't seem right. dropping the traveler changes main sheet tension, and hence leech tension / sail shape, because the traveler car's distance (its radius) from the gooseneck increases when you drop it.

there might be some exception to this rule - but it seems to me that the only geometrically correct traveler is a curved one. the fact that almost all sailors, and builders (aside from the big multis), seem to accept the straight traveler as a given strikes me as a bizarre anachronism, if not just plain lazy, because they simply don't seem to work as advertised.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong here - but at least on every boat I've sailed - the traveler is a travesty.

You're right, although "travesty" might be a little strong. It's an overcomplicated solution, and popular among smaller boats because expensive (and curved) travelers are fairly common on big boats.

The effect of tightening leech tension as you ease the (straight bar) traveler is pretty minimal, unless it's a wide boat with a longer-than-usual traveler; even then you generally only play the traveler when close-hauled so the range of travel is short.

 

[MisterMoon]

Paging @ZeroTheHero.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I have a Seascape 24. What is now the Beneteau First 24 SE. There is a FB group, actually several. Think there is an instagram group as well. We have a group chat on the Signal app as well. I have hull 41, oldest in the US. I sail it on Lake Champlain. The boat has a bridle that centers the boom and sheets the leach tension on to max as others have mentioned. The vang is very powerful and can hold the boom down. However, the main sail is extremely large for the boat and a lot of time we are spilling the top open to manage the power. The boat is okay upwind. Really excels in light wind. Due to a short water line it doesn't do great in waves. We usually put in the first reef at about 12-15 knots of wind with the J1 up. The second reef goes in over 20. In anything over 20 you really want the J2 up front. Off the wind the boat is quick. We have hit 17.1 knots of boat speed and speeds over 10 knots are fairly common in medium winds with the chute up. The boat is very powerful for it's small size. We have put the tip of the mast in the water while out racing. But the dual rudders have great grip and usually provide a lot of forgiveness. The interior is very comfortable and usable. We have overnighted on ours. As far as being competitive that depends on loads of factors. Not just the presence of a traveler. We have beaten J105s boat for boat in local races but have also scored a few DFLs. Some days are just better than others. Let me know if you want any other info.

 

[floater]

The boat is very powerful for it's small size. We have put the tip of the mast in the water while out racing.

is that fast?

 

[floater]

The effect of tightening leech tension as you ease the (straight bar) traveler is pretty minimal..

see? you're part of the problem.. ;-)

 

[BrightAyes]

0Hero describes the whole enchilada perfectly. The lack/presence of a traveler is minor compared to all other concerns (#1 being competent and sufficient crew/ballast). Buy the boat because you want all of its modern features...or go buy a 40 yo 80s boat cuz its got a traveler and suffer the consequences.

 

[JoeO]

with almost all travelers - the straight ones - this doesn't seem right. dropping the traveler changes main sheet tension, and hence leech tension / sail shape, because the traveler car's distance (its radius) from the gooseneck increases when you drop it.

As someone who's trimmed main for maybe 30+ years on 1-tonners to Farr 40s, my response is that if you're in conditions where you are playing the traveler, you should also be adjusting the sheet and backstay just as, if not more frequently. So traveler curvature (or not) is really immaterial.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

is that fast?

I addressed that. Upwind? Nothing special. 5.5, 6 knots. Off the wind we have hit 17+ knots. Where are you sailing?

 

[Newbee Racer]

I addressed that. Upwind? Nothing special. 5.5, 6 knots. Off the wind we have hit 17+ knots. Where are you sailing?

Thank you kindly for such detailed information on how F24 sails.

Not sure about Floater but I sail on Lake Travis, Austin TX Also intend to tow the boat around for long weekends.

Interesting to hear that upwind hull speed is only around 5.5-6 with that tall square top main on such a light boat. My Capri 22 with a lot less sail area and with extra weight does 5.5-6 upwind in 12+ winds, no need to reef (until 20). Of course, my downwind SOG with the symmetrical spin does not exceed 7-7.5 in similar TWS conditions.

Now, when the TWS is around 4-7, Capri22 does not exceed 2.5-4.5 SOG close hauled (even on close reach)

How about pointing ability????? Does SS24 point well in light and heavy conditions?

 

[wajamamaj]

As someone who's trimmed main for maybe 30+ years on 1-tonners to Farr 40s, my response is that if you're in conditions where you are playing the traveler, you should also be adjusting the sheet and backstay just as, if not more frequently. So traveler curvature (or not) is really immaterial.

Agreed.

If you are in conditions where a lot of traveler is going up/down quickly then leech tension/mainsheet is probably pretty well eased so additional leech tension due to straight versus curved traveler is minimal as a percent of total "ease."

 

[M26]

Forget the traveler... just imagine the faces of your pals at the club when you will be in front of them WITHOUT A TRAVELER!

 

[Newbee Racer]

I have a Seascape 24. What is now the Beneteau First 24 SE. There is a FB group, actually several. Think there is an instagram group as well. We have a group chat on the Signal app as well. I have hull 41, oldest in the US. I sail it on Lake Champlain. The boat has a bridle that centers the boom and sheets the leach tension on to max as others have mentioned. The vang is very powerful and can hold the boom down. However, the main sail is extremely large for the boat and a lot of time we are spilling the top open to manage the power. The boat is okay upwind. Really excels in light wind. Due to a short water line it doesn't do great in waves. We usually put in the first reef at about 12-15 knots of wind with the J1 up. The second reef goes in over 20. In anything over 20 you really want the J2 up front. Off the wind the boat is quick. We have hit 17.1 knots of boat speed and speeds over 10 knots are fairly common in medium winds with the chute up. The boat is very powerful for it's small size. We have put the tip of the mast in the water while out racing. But the dual rudders have great grip and usually provide a lot of forgiveness. The interior is very comfortable and usable. We have overnighted on ours. As far as being competitive that depends on loads of factors. Not just the presence of a traveler. We have beaten J105s boat for boat in local races but have also scored a few DFLs. Some days are just better than others. Let me know if you want any other info.

By the way, can you possibly send me the links for these groups please? I would like to query as many folks as I can before making a go/no-go decision

 

['Bacco]

Why not get a J/80 and save $50-$60k?

 

[BrightAyes]

I'm down the road at Canyon with a Melges. Give me a buzz if you want to see real speed.

 

[floater]

As someone who's trimmed main for maybe 30+ years on 1-tonners to Farr 40s, my response is that if you're in conditions where you are playing the traveler, you should also be adjusting the sheet and backstay just as, if not more frequently. So traveler curvature (or not) is really immaterial.

exactly. the requirement for working a straight traveler is to also work the mainsheet.

you are also part of the problem. just imagine a world where dropping the traveler actually did not affect mainsail shape. it's glorious. iow - the straight traveler is way overrated.

 

[Crash]

It totally depends on the boat, and the length of the traveller, and the material of the sail, and the type of line that is the mainsheet. Dropping the trav (assuming straight) on your average mid 80s racer cruiser (say a S2 9.1 just for arguments sake) changes the angle of the boom significantly more than it changes the sheeting angle, so while yes, it does add tension to the mainsheet, and thus tighten's the leech, the change in angle of attack of the sail is much greater. You can still easily depower the boat without needed to change either sheet, backstay or vang. The goal is to not need to use a handful of rudder to maintain course/counter the roundup from the gust, as increased rudder adds the most drag. If its just a gust, chances are the trav is coming back up long before you need to change mainsheet or backstay. If it's a prolonged gust, or a more permanent increase in the windspeed, then yes, you need to adjust sheet, backstay and vang in response.

Add in the typical club racers sails (some stretch) and sheets (some more stretch) and the actual change in leech tension on the main is not all that great anyway.

Yes, the closer you get to "gran prix", and the longer the straight trav is, the more pronouced the tensioning of the leech. But its far from travesty, and I would always prefer a straight trav over no trav.

As the boat gets smaller, and vangs (and booms) more powerful, the need for the trav decreases....So a Seascape 24 or First 24 can likely get away with a bridle, vang and mainsheet without any significant degradation in the ability to trim its main.