Beneteau or Seascape 24 Question

[floater]

of course we all know exactly what you are talking about - as we are all forced to live with the bodged contrivance foisted upon us by a clearly lazy and misguided consortium of like minded designers and builders.

..but that doesn't mean you have to like it.

 

[floater]

a rather pretty solution:

 

[10thTonner]

a rather pretty solution: View attachment 571434

Noice, but they should have gone all the way and added traps instead of gut cutters.

 

[Will1073]

14 fucking deck plates

 

[floater]

oh? I thought they were beverage holders..

 

[ZeroTheHero]

By the way, can you possibly send me the links for these groups please? I would like to query as many folks as I can before making a go/no-go decision

on Facebook there is
-Seascape USA (Manufacturer page)
-Seascape &First Owner Club
-Seascape First Fan Club

On Instagram there is
-Seascapeedition
-Seascape USA (manufacturer page)

On signal (app)
-NAFSO (stands for North American First Seascape Edition

Sorry don't have links on my laptop

One thing that holds the boat back in terms of performance is the swing keel. It is very high aspect so in light air the boat sometimes has issues with leeway. You really need attached flow to point. Also the keel slot has a gasket over it but there is definitely more drag than on a Melges 24 or J70/J80. So that can be a consideration. But those boats don't have the capacity to overnight with 4 people. All designs that do more then 1 thing have compromises. With the 24 its a sporty family weekender. But not an all out racer. Modern version of something like a Catalina 22, if you will. Sails like a small keel boat, not a big dinghy like a Viper 640. Much more comfortable to day sail with friends.

 

[Crash]

a rather pretty solution: View attachment 571434

All boats are a compromise. That is elegant, but more expensive. Simpler and cheaper to mount on the cockpit sole like this...

Where you fall on the price vs performance spectrum depends on your goals, and the depth of the pocketbook...and to some degree the skill of you and your crew to take advantage of those last increments of gained performance.

 

[floater]

I suspect not a compromise, but instead the designer and builder never even considered a curved traveler. is there even such a thing as a curved traveler in the Harken catalog? I'm trying to rally the proletariat here folks - pitchforks and torches at the ready - time to lay siege to Selden!

and please don't tell anyone but it pisses me off every time I use mine, and now maybe it will nag at you to, at least just a little.. lol.

 

[floater]

ps: it occurs to me that the curve would have to be worked out as a function of distance to the gooseneck. hence it would be a custom job for every boat. but the interesting thing is that you can curve it either horizontally - as we see with the big tri's - or vertically as is typical with self-tacking jib tracks.

the interesting bit is working out just what the curve would need to be when it's vertical. a nice little geometry problem.

 

[Will1073]

I suspect not a compromise, but instead the designer and builder never even considered a curved traveler. is there even such a thing as a curved traveler in the Harken catalog? I'm trying to rally the proletariat here folks - pitchforks and torches at the ready - time to lay siege to Selden!

and please don't tell anyone but it pisses me off every time I use mine, and now maybe it will nag at you to, at least just a little.. lol.

Harken will do custom curved tracks, or you can do it yourself while you install the track. Depending on the curve it’s not too difficult.

 

[Steam Flyer]

ps: it occurs to me that the curve would have to be worked out as a function of distance to the gooseneck. hence it would be a custom job for every boat. but the interesting thing is that you can curve it either horizontally - as we see with the big tri's - or vertically as is typical with self-tacking jib tracks.

the interesting bit is working out just what the curve would need to be when it's vertical. a nice little geometry problem.

Correct, because the boom's pivot point is the vertical swivel pin in the gooseneck, that wouold be the point to center the traveler's radius. In other words, it needs to curve vertically as well as horizontally, and be aligned to that plane rather than anything on the boat's deck. You can see why it's rarely if ever done this way.

There is also a second radius to consider, the mainsheet. The vertical distance from the boom to the traveler will affect the difference in tension between a straight (horrors!) traveler and an ideally curved one; not just the radius from the gooseneck.

I have a penchant for math but my trig is atrophied from years of rare use (and then only with the help of an old textbook). I did wing it, using two secants BUT I checked my work by drawing out a full-scale boom/traveler/sheet arrangement. For a 10' horizontal from the gooseneck to traveler, and a 3' 6" vertical: when easing the main 3' from centerline (16.7 degrees) the difference between the curved and straight (spit!) traveler is a bit less than 1/4".

Note: this is 6.2 mm for those who like actual real measurements.

 

[Newbee Racer]

Why not get a J/80 and save $50-$60k?

No cabin space or comfort on J80

We have a very active J80 fleet and I crew on them time to time. Fun and fast but certainly not a day-sailor/weekender

 

[PopPopEd]

Good day,

I am in the market to buy a day sailor/overnight camper for competitive lake sailing. (I currently race a Capri22) I am interested in First 24SE but many experienced keelboat sailors with dinghy experience at our yacht club keep telling me not to buy a boat without a traveler if I want to be competitive. They argue that wang-sheeting can not replace a proper traveler for good sail trim.

I could not find any 24SE groups on the internet to ask questions about traveler or no traveler for competitive racing so I decided to contact you.

Can you please help me understand why 24SE can still be a competitive option without a traveler.

Thank you.

Hi, I just saw this post. The marina I was launching from (trailered boat) sustained a lot of damage during Hurricane Ian....so I am in the process of listing my Hobie/Phileas Open 570. There are many Youtube videos. It is a great boat and I have made a number of significant improvements, such as a Lewmar 40 winch to raise and lower the 350lb bulb keel from the cockpit (it's awesome!). The boat is a screamer and it has been Portsmouth handicapped by the Monroe Sailing Association (my club) to 90 PRHF. It's interesting that I was in Charleston, SC and looked at a Beneteau 24 SE. They are very nice boats too, obviously larger than an Open 570. Really well thought out features and, not surprisingly, the designers of the 24SE copied many of the features of the Open 570. Common features - fly the spin from the cockpit, retractable spin pole forward, open aft, wide/long cockpit for crew, retractable keel, fully battened main, etc. Here are a couple of drawbacks I saw to the 24SE... 1. You really won't be able to safely step the mast without at least three guys, or a crane. 2. The motor will need to be much larger than the Torqeedo electric that does a fine job moving the Open 570 around for about 3-miles on a charge. 3. The cost of the 24SE could be upwards of $80,000+ (used). A beautiful, fully equipped, with new sails, Open 570 might be $25k. 4. Weight 24SE boat and trailer might be 3,500 lbs, Open 570 boat and trailer 1,500lbs. If you'd like to take this conversation to email I am at [email protected] PopPopEd

 

[floater]

because the boom's pivot point is the vertical swivel pin in the gooseneck, that wouold be the point to center the traveler's radius. In other words, it needs to curve vertically as well as horizontally, and be aligned to that plane rather than anything on the boat's deck. You can see why it's rarely if ever done this way.

it seems to me that we have one job here: keep the mainsheet tension constant when dropping the traveler. no need for a compound curve that I can intuit - and the examples we see in the world are not compound either. but then, I'll confess, no penchant for math here. ;-)

but why is main sheet tension important. you ask? here is an experiment that anybody can try at home. find yourself a channel oriented straight into the breeze. tack your way up this channel - and then fall off to your destination.

You are singlehanding so you simply center the traveler for the series of tacks - but yeah, its blowing so you've got the mainsheet in as far in as humanly possible. Now, drop the traveler. what happens next when you try to ease the mainsheet?

 

[BrightAyes]

Hi, I just saw this post. The marina I was launching from (trailered boat) sustained a lot of damage during Hurricane Ian....so I am in the process of listing my Hobie/Phileas Open 570. There are many Youtube videos. It is a great boat and I have made a number of significant improvements, such as a Lewmar 40 winch to raise and lower the 350lb bulb keel from the cockpit (it's awesome!). The boat is a screamer and it has been Portsmouth handicapped by the Monroe Sailing Association (my club) to 90 PRHF. It's interesting that I was in Charleston, SC and looked at a Beneteau 24 SE. They are very nice boats too, obviously larger than an Open 570. Really well thought out features and, not surprisingly, the designers of the 24SE copied many of the features of the Open 570. Common features - fly the spin from the cockpit, retractable spin pole forward, open aft, wide/long cockpit for crew, retractable keel, fully battened main, etc. Here are a couple of drawbacks I saw to the 24SE... 1. You really won't be able to safely step the mast without at least three guys, or a crane. 2. The motor will need to be much larger than the Torqeedo electric that does a fine job moving the Open 570 around for about 3-miles on a charge. 3. The cost of the 24SE could be upwards of $80,000+ (used). A beautiful, fully equipped, with new sails, Open 570 might be $25k. 4. Weight 24SE boat and trailer might be 3,500 lbs, Open 570 boat and trailer 1,500lbs. If you'd like to take this conversation to email I am at [email protected] PopPopEd

Haha. You know what's coming, right? Let me be the first to ask you to: a) show us your GFs tits and b) buy an ad. lmfao

 

[floater]

and here's another angle of the Moore 30. damn. what a cool boat. (yeah, sure. not better than above. but still).

 

[BrightAyes]

Good name for the Moore 30 is "Death Trap". Anyone wandering more than mile from any shore on any body of water best be prepared to swim home should a storm arise. History is hard on legends

What ever happened to the Moore 30

Remember those stories, boys. You're all on the list. And to anyone that doubts that surfing played a huge role in SC's ULDB development...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

 

[Great Red Shark]

Why not get a J/80 and save $50-$60k?

wants to trailer and not have the deck 9 feet off the ground?

 

[floater]

Good name for the Moore 30 is "Death Trap". Anyone wandering more than mile from any shore on any body of water best be prepared to swim home should a storm arise. History is hard on legends

What ever happened to the Moore 30

Remember those stories, boys. You're all on the list. And to anyone that doubts that surfing played a huge role in SC's ULDB development...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

I think this is misinformation. conflation with a different boat, and iirc - that thread has a note from the owner of the boat in question and it was modded wo the architect's approval.

 

[JoeO]

exactly. the requirement for working a straight traveler is to also work the mainsheet.

you are also part of the problem. just imagine a world where dropping the traveler actually did not affect mainsail shape. it's glorious. iow - the straight traveler is way overrated.

Even without changing mainsheet tension, dropping the traveler will affect mainsail shape as the angle of attack to the TW has changed up and down the sail, and therefore the pressure distribution.

Look, there are times when you want to change sheet tension as you also ease the traveler - big gust in big waves, you may need more twist, need to ease sheet, or actually tighten the sheet when trav down if a flat-water puff, so you dont give up too much point after reducing heel after a traveler ease (easing the trav means you reduce heel, gets the keel working more, means you may be able to handle more leech tension for point in flat water conditions).

Any decent main trimmer will basically have both the sheet and trav control line uncleated and in their hands in changeable conditions. This curved traveler issue is a nothing-burger.