Bermuda 40 vs Swan 44?

[LionessRacing]

Offer to come to Little River, SC and get some onboard experience on Lioness is still open.

As regards "waddling at 6 kts" above, we regularly topped 7 and the reaching polars go to 8.5 above 20kts. I've surfed INSIDE SF bay crossing the slot, and was able to sail very competitively at the 168 PHRF rating above 10 kts TWS. Mizzen staysail is one of those sails that you will find more useful than you would expect, easily set and struck singlehanded and adds quite a bit of offwind range without handling and rig stress of a spinnaker

Ease of divided rig sail handling and ease of motion of the fine ends, long keel and voluptuous overhangs are factors that you will appreciate on longer passages and longer ownership. Over 20 yrs of ownership, I've resumed using Lazy Jacks and will be getting full battens and tracks on next Main/mizzen to make handling even easier. 

Agree on water and fuel tankage being range limitations, we crossed Gulf of Maine motoring >300 miles to Halifax and used 25 gals in extra Jerry can's in the pulpit for underway replenishment of the 45 gal monel tank. 

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Actually there is an answer for traditional + shallow + no centreboard ----> long keel wooden working boat.

Sprit

Fathead Main

Looks ready to race

 

[MauiPunter]

View attachment 435867

That looks expensive.

 

[slap]

That looks expensive.

It's always cheaper to rent than own........

 

[Beer Can]

Depreciation has finally become my friend and I can afford an updated example of either one with a relatively new motor, recent refit, no teak deck, and modern systems. Intended use would be winters in the Bahamas and day sailing Lake Erie in the summer. I can't do another winter in Ohio, I'm retired so moving the boat is not an issue.  I will be doing the vast majority of my own maintenance having restored a 34 footer in the past and lived on it for a year. I've always loved the looks of a B-40, but I can also appreciate the speed, blue water prowess, and handling of the Swan. And no, I don't have time to spend a month sailing each one and I am having trouble reaching clarity. I guess I could just skip a step or two and buy a trawler or a motorhome... 

Bermuda 40- Pros: shoal draft keel great for the Bahamas and the ICW. Easy to single hand yawl rig. Iconically beautiful. Reasonable accommodations for one or two, but not for grown children to visit. Great resale value. About 20K less than a comparable S-44. Solid fiberglass deck (I hate leaks.) Beautiful brightwork. Cons: Lots of beautiful brightwork. Not roomy for a 40 footer. It's age has made insurance coverage a potential problem. No second enclosed cabin. Carrying a dinghy is an issue. 

Swan 44- Pros- fast, long waterline. More of a challenge, more potential to take to the Philippines where I am considering expatriating to. Good to weather. Very good blue water capability and protected cockpit. Huge salon. Less exterior teak.  Good to great looks. Full complement of racing and cruising sails. Cons- more skill to single-hand but the owner can do this and fly a spinnaker in the dark. Twelve years newer than the B-40. More expensive refit, sails, parts, maintenance. 

If I get some good responses I will post some provocative pics of my filipina girlfriend. I know the rules and can handle the abuse. 

Both beautiful boats.  Kinda like choosing between chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

I had an S&S Swan 41 (which was based on the 44).  A great boat.  Sailed beautifully.  Great lines.  Built like a tank.  A competitive PHRF rating.  Went to wind like a freight train. I sincerely regret having ever having sold her.  The negatives are the headsail and loads on them are significant.  Need a bit of beef to get the genoa in.  Not ideal for single handing.  But I have the impression that its sailing performance is overall better than the Hinckley.  If it is strictly cruising for you that might not matter to you.  If there is any racing in your future, particularly ocean racing, the Swan will be much better for that use.

I, too, love the looks of the old Hinckleys but haven't sailed on them.  One thing I have heard is that the Hinckley's don't point that well, in contrast to the S&S Swans (pretty much all the S&S boats perform upwind very well).  I imagine the Hinckley's would be a bit less demanding short-handed.  The Hinckley wins for looks in my humble opinion.  I am not a fan of shoal draft boats (for performance reasons) but if that is important to you I guess I get it.  The Swan wins for performance.  My Swan was so well-built that I never thought much about her being more than 40 years old.  I imagine the Hinckley is much the same in that regard.

Good luck.

 

[Beer Can]

Much appreciated. I always look at the tankage, whether the tanks have been replaced, their location etc. For example the Hinckley fuel tank is monel and never wears out, is located under the engine, and has been cleaned and revented when the engine was pulled. 
 

I wonder why the 36 is always on the list of best Swans. It is now off my list due to the sailing characteristics you describe. 

I think it makes those lists because it was the first successful ocean-racing S&S Swan and probably paved the way for the others.

 

[accnick]

I think it makes those lists because it was the first successful ocean-racing S&S Swan and probably paved the way for the others.

The 36 is a good little boat, with emphasis on the "little". I believe it may have been designed to the RORC rating rule, which explains the narrow, long-ended hull.

We won the 1981 Marion-Bermuda race with one named Edelweiss. I believe that was a 1969 boat, so very early in Swan history. It had some rudder issues--partial delamination of the fiberglass from the armature--which I repaired before the race.

As I recall, it had airfoil rod rigging. Went upwind extremely well, but was pretty wet getting there. It had a big varnished cockpit coaming that wrapped over the top of the deckhouse forward of the companionway, which was a fairly elegant touch used only on that one model, to the best of my knowledge. It also had teak toerails, in the days before the near-trademark slotted aluminum toerails used later by Nautor.

The old Swan 40 (not the 41, which was a totally different later  IOR design) was the big brother to the 36.

 

[Caliente]

Time for an update as everyone has been very helpful. The broker did not mention there was another offer on the Hinckley with the potential buyer living far, far away and planning to personally inspect the boat on April 9. Today. My understanding is that this is bad broker form, in that usually when an offer is accepted and a deposit taken the boat should come off the market until it is either accepted or rejected after the personal inspection, survey, and sea trial. Further, I have now been waiting a long time without Markel giving an insurance quote, the industry seems to be in disarray perhaps due to the threat of inflation with all the money printing going on. Many of the contrarian financial types I have been listening to are predicting an apocalyptic currency reset after hyperinflation. No doubt difficult times to be in the insurance business. 

This has given me lots of time to ponder. I knew it would be quite a journey to take a boat from Cleveland to the Bahamas and back, but the actual time is between 45 and 60 six hour days, much of it dull motoring on the diesel which would run the engine hours up quickly. Next, many people write that the winter weather in the Bahamas can be aggravating especially the wind which I have experienced myself on vacations, and while the diving is good and the water is beautiful the sailing isn't all that great. So maybe it would be better to keep the boat in the Great Lakes enjoying the six months of pleasant weather, then fly somewhere warm like the Philippines for the other six months. 

If the boat is kept up north, winter heated storage is $4500 per year, and it would be a shame to not provide this for the Hinckley. A slip locally is $3200, not bad and includes wifi and 30 amp service. My guess on insurance is $3600, maybe it will be dramatically less keeping it locally. This amounts to some real money and a continuing liability. 

If the boat will then become primarily a day-sailer and occasional Great Lakes cruiser, then performance becomes more important than creature comforts and a shoal draft is not as important on the Great Lakes. 

With this evolution in my thinking about buying the "dream" boat I have been studying J Boats, in particular the J/35. A few days ago I looked at a J/32 which was already $67,000 and needed the entire deck gelcoat removed due to extensive crazing. I would charge $25K to fix that and it is a miserable job. I don't know what will happen with the Hinckley, but now if it gets sold I will focus only on boats that are already on the Great Lakes and I don't think I would be disappointed with a J/35. As a bonus, their major weakness is deck core rot around the penetrations and that is something I can fix myself. Everyone knows what an amazing performer they are, in this case it would be at one-third the expense. 

In retrospect it would have been good for the thread to be titled Bermuda 40 vs ??? but I can honestly say that all of the contributions made here have taught me a lot about buying a larger sailboat and I think others in the future will benefit from the knowledge shared. Thanks to all that have spent their time writing down their thoughts! Now I have to look in the mirror and consider that I might become one of those crazy J Boat Anarchy people. My dad never should have bought me that Sunfish...

 

[ropetrick]

I think that you will fit right in with the J crowd.

 

[@last]

As a former owner of a J35 on Lake Michigan, I have nothing but good things to say about the boat from offshore ability to something as sublime as a nice day sail.  One of a select few sailboats in the American Sailboat Hall of Fame (along with the B40 you were considering) the boat has tons of positive attributes.  One thing to consider perhaps though to draw a tool analogy.  The most important part of the equation is what job you are trying to get done.  A Philips screwdriver and a hammer are both very useful tools but not necessarily interchangeable.  So as you have been doing, give careful consideration to the job you are trying to get done and the constraints (draft, budget, number of crew, amenities needed, etc.) and that should help in the process.  The market has been certainly very brisk and as all endeavors the old adage the early bird gets the worm although perhaps a little shop worn does seem to apply this year.  Good luck and keep us posted, feel free to DM me if you have J35 specific questions although there are tons of J35 owners who post in SA and have a wealth of experience with the boat too.

 

[T sailor]

I think with this change in focus, I would consider a J/37 over the J/35.  More comfortable to cruise, bigger cockpit and just as fast.  I would also look at the Thomas 35 as a good J/35 alternative and if you are ok with a slightly slower boat, the Tartan 3500 or a C&C 110 (or 36XL).  For the Tartan or C&C110, I would look for one that was built in the late 90's before they switched over to using epoxy.  They struggled to get a good gelcoat bond with the early epoxy boats and used tie coats that added a lot of weight.  We had an epoxy 3400 in the family for a while and it was a nice boat, but grossly overweight.  

Not to steer you off J boats (I own one) but I think for your prescribed usage, there are better options than a J/35.  Other J/boat options would be the 35C, 110 and a J/40.  If you can find a nice J/40 that could be a really good all around boat.  They have finally come down in price to where I think they should be (around $70K).  It also depends on how much boat you think you need or want.  For any of the J boats, I would look for a post '87 boat as they changed the resin system on them which made them less prone to water intrusion into the core.  Still a potential problem, but slightly reduced late 80's boats.  Mid 90's J boats are scrimped and have more resin in the between the slits in the core which also helps with water intrusion.  

good luck and keep posting the updates....  It's always fun to try to tell people how they should spend their money....

 

[Caliente]

The J/40 is a great recommendation, it checks all the boxes for sure. There is a beautiful one in Maine for $79K, but it has an offer already awaiting survey and 40 people waiting in line if it is rejected. $40K less than the Hinckley and has many advantages: better performance, better galley, nice sails, bright teak interior, two heads (I am not in favor of sharing a head with another couple,) $500 less for a slip, little exterior teak, meets the 40' limit for many local marinas etc. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/j-boats-j-40-3818150/

 

[BOKSAROX]

Swan 44 VIXEN for sale in Jamestown, RI with Berthon.  Well maintained, and has modifications to rudder and S&S bustle.  

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Swan 44 VIXEN for sale in Jamestown, RI with Berthon.  Well maintained, and has modifications to rudder and S&S bustle.  

Isn't the OP planning on a Great Loop? That would cut out any Swan I know of. We also may do a Great Loop one day and are not looking at any boats that draw over 5 feet board up.

 

[Caliente]

Isn't the OP planning on a Great Loop? That would cut out any Swan I know of. We also may do a Great Loop one day and are not looking at any boats that draw over 5 feet board up.

Not planning a Great Loop and never was, but living in Cleveland it would be half of one to get to the Bahamas. I have mentioned above that plan doesn’t seem practical. I think the confusion comes from seeing the swan 44 in Michigan with a rotten mast step would make a good great loop vessel because it’s too expensive to fix to hold a rig, I was jesting

 

[Caliente]

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

 

[Raz'r]

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

View attachment 438113

Nice!

 

[accnick]

The nice J/40 became available just now when the buyer backed out of the deal. I put a deposit on it. 
 

And now the Hinckley is back on the market for the same reason, I guess the moral of the story is to be polite with the broker on a pending sale boat. I’m two for two on deals falling through by other buyers and that surprises me.
 

Survey one year ago, like new sails geared for single handling (blade jib,) re-powered, stored inside eight months per year, nice upgrades- very happy with this one and the advice that led me to the J/40. 

View attachment 438113

Those are good boats.

 

[Somebody Else]

View attachment 436758

This photo makes me sea-sick

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Not planning a Great Loop and never was, but living in Cleveland it would be half of one to get to the Bahamas. I have mentioned above that plan doesn’t seem practical. I think the confusion comes from seeing the swan 44 in Michigan with a rotten mast step would make a good great loop vessel because it’s too expensive to fix to hold a rig, I was jesting

Actually if you go on the Great Loop forums, de-rigged sailboats are a thing, they have figured out they use far less fuel than most trawlers, let alone fast powerboats.