Bermuda 40 vs Swan 44?
- Thread starter Caliente
- Start date
Caliente
Member
- Thread starter
- #242
As I ran into a few disappointing surveys and sea trials I reviewed all the advice and opinions given and looked further into the S2 7.9. I found a nice one in Green Bay at a reasonable price (the upgrades alone since 2016 were equal to the selling price) and it is now sitting securely in the slip I had prepaid at the beginning of the season.
While immensely smaller than my first choices, this boat is adequate in all ways for my stated mission since I don't mind camping. It is large enough to justify keeping in a slip and small enough to trailer cross country if needed. It won't cost $5000 to store for the winter in heated storage and is pretty much maximally depreciated. There isn't much teak to maintain. It's fast and has a great cockpit. It has almost new racing sails and every option I might need or want. There are no projects that need attending to. Now I can just get back into sailing instead of boatbuilding and enjoy the summer.
In this case, I saved $100,000 and I think I am just as happy as I would have been with the more expensive, complicated choices.
While immensely smaller than my first choices, this boat is adequate in all ways for my stated mission since I don't mind camping. It is large enough to justify keeping in a slip and small enough to trailer cross country if needed. It won't cost $5000 to store for the winter in heated storage and is pretty much maximally depreciated. There isn't much teak to maintain. It's fast and has a great cockpit. It has almost new racing sails and every option I might need or want. There are no projects that need attending to. Now I can just get back into sailing instead of boatbuilding and enjoy the summer.
In this case, I saved $100,000 and I think I am just as happy as I would have been with the more expensive, complicated choices.
SloopJonB
Super Anarchist
You have learned an old rule, usually learned the hard way;
"Choose the smallest bot that meets your needs, not the biggest boat you think you can handle".
@last
Anarchist
- 940
- 71
Nice choice and am sure you will be happy with the boat. Enjoyed mine (screen name was boats name when I bought/owned it) for 7 years before moving on to the J35. Active class association with lots of support/advice from owners either here on SA or elsewhere. Time for you to go sailing!
kent_island_sailor
Super Anarchist
That boat looks nice. I think you will have a lot of fun
hint - outboard battery charging is marginal. Grab a solar panel.
ridgerunner
New member
Not quite true. Many Hinckley B40's have participated in the Newport-Bermuda race over the years (they have a well deserved exemption to the SI rules). Most recently, "Actaea" won the St. David's Lighthouse division in 2014.
Ocean Navigator had a good article about stability index vs. capsize length, and uses the B40 as an example of how the formula doesn't really give a fair assessment of the seaworthiness of beamy, shoal draft sailboats:
https://www.oceannavigator.com/stability/
The Bermuda 40s that participate in the Newport Bermuda Race meet the stability index requirements of 115. Many Bermuda 40s do not.
There are no exemptions from the 115 SI requirements for the Bermuda 40. (I am chairman of the technical committee for the race.)
TUBBY
Anarchist
It would be a brave committee who set A SI limit & then allowed exceptions.
1st issue would be with everyone who DIDN"T get an exception.
2nd would be with the lawyers of the families of anyone who didn't come home from a boat that got an exception, wether the incident had had anything to do with stability or not!
1st issue would be with everyone who DIDN"T get an exception.
2nd would be with the lawyers of the families of anyone who didn't come home from a boat that got an exception, wether the incident had had anything to do with stability or not!
The ORR stability index used for the Newport Bermuda Race and others is a size-adjusted modification of each boat’s calculated range of positive stability.
Every individual boat goes through floatation measurement, including small-angle inclination and freeboards to datum points to calculate displacement and righting moment. VCG and other hydrostatic parameters are calculated by integrating floatation, inclination, and hull lines to yield the ORR SI.
No one would claim this is a definitive measure is seaworthiness, but race organizers need to use some standards to determine whether individual boats can participate.
Obviously, a lot more goes into that decision, including boat construction and modification details, crew experience and training, and a lot of other things.
The Bermuda 40 is a good boat, but many of them do not meet the minimum ORR SI of the race, and are not eligible to compete.
A capsize length calculation might well be a long-term alternative, but it is not a trivial exercise, and it is not free. The ORR calculates the SI for each boat as part of the process of producing its measurement certificate.
By the way, the term “beamy center boarder” is frequently applied to boats like the B 40, but compared to modern fixed-keel boats of the same overall length, the B 40 is actually pretty narrow. The B 40 is probably similar in beam to modern fixed keel boats of the same waterline length.
We take safety very seriously in running the Newport Bermuda Race. Part of that includes applying consistent standards across the fleet.
Every individual boat goes through floatation measurement, including small-angle inclination and freeboards to datum points to calculate displacement and righting moment. VCG and other hydrostatic parameters are calculated by integrating floatation, inclination, and hull lines to yield the ORR SI.
No one would claim this is a definitive measure is seaworthiness, but race organizers need to use some standards to determine whether individual boats can participate.
Obviously, a lot more goes into that decision, including boat construction and modification details, crew experience and training, and a lot of other things.
The Bermuda 40 is a good boat, but many of them do not meet the minimum ORR SI of the race, and are not eligible to compete.
A capsize length calculation might well be a long-term alternative, but it is not a trivial exercise, and it is not free. The ORR calculates the SI for each boat as part of the process of producing its measurement certificate.
By the way, the term “beamy center boarder” is frequently applied to boats like the B 40, but compared to modern fixed-keel boats of the same overall length, the B 40 is actually pretty narrow. The B 40 is probably similar in beam to modern fixed keel boats of the same waterline length.
We take safety very seriously in running the Newport Bermuda Race. Part of that includes applying consistent standards across the fleet.
LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
"Actaea" lovely as she is, is more of a "Turbo B-40" with a ballast shoe on her keel, carbon spars and I think she has the Mark 3 Sloop Main mast instead of the Yawl Main which was a wee bit shorter. The Coen's have raced and cruised her vigorously throughout the Chesapeake.
LionessRacing
Super Anarchist
As a future prospective entrant with B-40 #24; where can I find the tests & calculations to figure out what modifications I would need to do to qualify ?
sailman
Super Anarchist
You can consult with ORA, the owners of the ORR rule but I am sure that you will need a full measurement to qualify.
Wannabesailorz
New member
This was a great set of posts to read through. I’ve always been fascinated by Swans and smitten by the B40. We live in Miami where shoal drafts are important, especially if you like to spend time traveling to the Bahamas and the keys. I’m looking for a boat that we can day cruise and weekend around Biscayne bay, the keys and Bimini, but can also travel the exumas and/or the Abacos for a couple weeks each year.
Older swans, like the 46 and the 47/48 have gotten cheap (there’s several for sale at less than 150k) and they can be had with centerboards or (in the case of the 46) a Scheel keel. So, they are very tempting, but I worry that they’re too much boat for me to take out on a casual daysail on my own or with just the wife (which may as well be on my own). The majority also have teak decks, which are undesirable in a hot tropical location. All the swans suffer poor ventilation and limited space for a/c and gensets (which are a necessity in summer months down here, especially if you have poor ventilation). Any Swan would be ideal, however, for heading off to the Bahamas, across the gulf stream, into prevailing easterlies. Also, the kids are both competitive sailors; maybe I could get them and their dinghy sailing buddies to teach me how to run the boat in a few of the ocean races down here. That said, all the boats I’ve seen at the ~125-175k asking price range have been more than a little tired looking.
The one Bermuda 40 I saw was anything but tired looking. It gleamed and exuded class, timelessness, beauty, and charm in a way no modern boat can do. And it sold for something like $120k. I loved the cockpit, because it was very roomy and would be perfect for cocktail cruising around the bay. I liked the wide side decks because, as day sailors/weekenders, we spend most of our time up top. While the cabin space is small for a boat of its size, I found it very comfortable and there is more than enough room for my wife and I and the kids to do short cruises. The cabin also seemed better suited for day sailing than a swan. Passing food. drinks, and conversation between the cockpit and the galley seemed like it would be easy and pleasant. Folks in the cabin can see, hear, and converse with a crowd in the cockpit much easier than they could on a swan. It was also pretty bright and airy downstairs, less like a musty wooden cave. The yawl rig seems fun to noodle with and is pretty. The draft is a foot shorter than the swans.
So, I guess I’m sort of leaning B40. But, I’m worried about the balsa cored decks (does anyone know what year they switched to foam coring?), the heaviness of the thing in light winds (are they any fun to sail?), whether I can find room to fit a genset (the one I saw had an A/C installation that was excellent, but no generator),
Are there any other interesting boats that should make my list? Im trying to find a boat that can be had in immaculate condition for ~150k or less. I need a shoal draft (<6’ is a must, <5’ is preferable). The boat needs to be a pleasant daysailor with enough blue water Capability to cross the stream.
Older swans, like the 46 and the 47/48 have gotten cheap (there’s several for sale at less than 150k) and they can be had with centerboards or (in the case of the 46) a Scheel keel. So, they are very tempting, but I worry that they’re too much boat for me to take out on a casual daysail on my own or with just the wife (which may as well be on my own). The majority also have teak decks, which are undesirable in a hot tropical location. All the swans suffer poor ventilation and limited space for a/c and gensets (which are a necessity in summer months down here, especially if you have poor ventilation). Any Swan would be ideal, however, for heading off to the Bahamas, across the gulf stream, into prevailing easterlies. Also, the kids are both competitive sailors; maybe I could get them and their dinghy sailing buddies to teach me how to run the boat in a few of the ocean races down here. That said, all the boats I’ve seen at the ~125-175k asking price range have been more than a little tired looking.
The one Bermuda 40 I saw was anything but tired looking. It gleamed and exuded class, timelessness, beauty, and charm in a way no modern boat can do. And it sold for something like $120k. I loved the cockpit, because it was very roomy and would be perfect for cocktail cruising around the bay. I liked the wide side decks because, as day sailors/weekenders, we spend most of our time up top. While the cabin space is small for a boat of its size, I found it very comfortable and there is more than enough room for my wife and I and the kids to do short cruises. The cabin also seemed better suited for day sailing than a swan. Passing food. drinks, and conversation between the cockpit and the galley seemed like it would be easy and pleasant. Folks in the cabin can see, hear, and converse with a crowd in the cockpit much easier than they could on a swan. It was also pretty bright and airy downstairs, less like a musty wooden cave. The yawl rig seems fun to noodle with and is pretty. The draft is a foot shorter than the swans.
So, I guess I’m sort of leaning B40. But, I’m worried about the balsa cored decks (does anyone know what year they switched to foam coring?), the heaviness of the thing in light winds (are they any fun to sail?), whether I can find room to fit a genset (the one I saw had an A/C installation that was excellent, but no generator),
Are there any other interesting boats that should make my list? Im trying to find a boat that can be had in immaculate condition for ~150k or less. I need a shoal draft (<6’ is a must, <5’ is preferable). The boat needs to be a pleasant daysailor with enough blue water Capability to cross the stream.
someoldsalt
Member
- 478
- 15
Hood 38? (Bristol, Wauquiez, Little Harbor)
Wannabesailorz
New member
Anything that floats is expensive. And anything cool that floats is even more expensive, but it’s still cool. Pragmatic though they may be, Beneteaus seem like such a boring solution. They are nice and new when new, but for 150k you get something about as appealing as a gently used, never detailed, 10 year old Toyota Corolla. It’s practical, it will never do you wrong, but It hardly pulls the heart stings. Wouldn’t you rather have the B40? It’s at least got some charm… and it draws a foot less, looks amazing, and isn’t THAT much slower. The full keel is probably preferable on a nasty day in the gulf stream also.Cristoforo said:
Wannabesailorz
New member
I have a hard time getting excited about these for some reason. Every time I see a Hood designed boat that ticks all the boxes, it’s 250k. A 75k B40 is just as much a worn warship as a 50k Bristol, but at 150k the B40’s are as immaculate as a 250k little harbor. Maybe I just haven’t found the right one?
Left Shift
Super Anarchist
Black Jack
Super Anarchist
Currently going through a phase. I hope it will pass before I start looking in person. Camper Nicholson 43
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