Best setup for asym peels?

George Dewey

Super Anarchist
2,071
118
Charleston, SC
I want to set my J/111 (so 36 feet LOA with an 8 foot bowsprite) up for asym peels. I have only been sailing this boat since July and it's my first asym boat, so I would appreciate some help deciding how to set this up and do it.

I think I need a second block on each quarter and a second set of sheets. The bowsprit end is set up with two low friction rings, and both sides of the cabin house have line guides and a clutch. I currently have one tackline on the starboard side. I think the fittings on the port side were for the headsail furler, but I'm getting rid of that.

We sail a mix of W/L and short harbor races and offshore, so doing a peel won't be a common event. Still, in my last race it would have been a big benefit to switch from an A3 to an A2 toward the end of the race, but we couldn't short of going bareheaded. 

Given a second tack line is extra weight and another string that won't be used too often, might it be better to go with a changing strope? If it's harder for the crew, probably not, but I would appreciate opinions on this. I could also just rig the second tackline when doing an offshore race.

Up top, the spinn halyards are above and below each other. That being the case, does it matter if the new spinn goes up inside or outside the old one?

Thanks!

 
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Fintho

Member
141
67
Tasmania
Honestly, the time lost by just hoisting the jib, rigging the new kite in the bag ready to go, dropping the old kite, hoisting the new one is not going to be significantly more than peeling, especially offshore imo. The potential for fuckups with peeling big A2's wouldn't be small either. 

The most we peel is from a Fr0 to an A2/A3, and even that can be tricky with running lines to make sure nothing goes bad...

 
We find peels on our 32 footer very beneficial and usually gaining us a place or more. We practice though and anything more than 15 kts is about our threshold as things can go very wrong as the breeze builds. We also have twin under/over masthead halyards with a choker on one to run fractional if needed. If you strip and taper the tack lines, they weigh almost nothing so having two attached is really not an issue. Crossing halyards is not preferred so try and mange this by predicting what your sail order may be but you can get away with it on a very short leg.

 

3apc

Member
200
2
Toronto, now
You're going to want a second tack line - a strop works if you can get to the end of the pole/sprit (or if it can be temporarily tacked to the bow and later transferred) which isn't really the case here. Not saying it can't be done but it wouldn't be ideal.

You're also going to want to hoist the new kite inside, on the lower of your halyards.

You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily. Fiddles work if it gives you peace of mind that nothing is going to get tangled.

 
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ryley

Super Anarchist
5,516
666
Boston, MA
You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily.
I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.

 

3apc

Member
200
2
Toronto, now
I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.
Yeah I've never had a problem either - just saying you can put a fiddle block there if it makes you happy. And to be clear, you only need to double the leeward sheet, windward sheet can be lead once the dust settles.

 
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T sailor

Member
458
106
Chesapeake
On my 120, we run with a single tackline.   We use a stropto the bow for the new tack and we run a Martin breaker on the main tackline so that when you blow the tackline 7’ it triggers the shackle open.    After the tackline blows, bowman attaches it to the new kite tack and then pit grinds it out to the end of the spirit.  New kite goes up on the inside (lower) halyard.  We drop the old kite down the companionway using the lazy sheet trying to pull it under the boom to help blanket it.  
 

we definitely need more practice, but with the A team on the boat this usually goes off well.  

 

George Dewey

Super Anarchist
2,071
118
Charleston, SC
You're going to want a second tack line - a strop works if you can get to the end of the pole/sprit (or if it can be temporarily tacked to the bow and later transferred) which isn't really the case here. Not saying it can't be done but it wouldn't be ideal.

You're also going to want to hoist the new kite inside, on the lower of your halyards.

You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily. Fiddles work if it gives you peace of mind that nothing is going to get tangled.


I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.
Yes I'm thinking since the hardware is in place to go for the second tack line approach, if for no other reason then the bow team needs to learn one less thing this way. On the blocks, they are only as wide as one sheet, did you mean it's okay for the new active sheet to be on top of the old one, so there is a piece of line between the shive and new sheet? I can't see how that would work, but I'll run a few pieces of sheet in there and see what happens. 

On the tack line, how long should a tack line be? It seems to me it should be long enough to allow a letter box drop without having to disconnect it. 

On the second peel (if that happens) would we hoist it outside since it's now on the upper halyard?

Thanks guys!!!

 

blastoff

New member
23
0
I want to set my J/111 (so 36 feet LOA with an 8 foot bowsprite) up for asym peels. I have only been sailing this boat since July and it's my first asym boat, so I would appreciate some help deciding how to set this up and do it.

I think I need a second block on each quarter and a second set of sheets. The bowsprit end is set up with two low friction rings, and both sides of the cabin house have line guides and a clutch. I currently have one tackline on the starboard side. I think the fittings on the port side were for the headsail furler, but I'm getting rid of that.

We sail a mix of W/L and short harbor races and offshore, so doing a peel won't be a common event. Still, in my last race it would have been a big benefit to switch from an A3 to an A2 toward the end of the race, but we couldn't short of going bareheaded. 

Given a second tack line is extra weight and another string that won't be used too often, might it be better to go with a changing strope? If it's harder for the crew, probably not, but I would appreciate opinions on this. I could also just rig the second tackline when doing an offshore race.

Up top, the spinn halyards are above and below each other. That being the case, does it matter if the new spinn goes up inside or outside the old one?

Thanks!
I like second tack line.  Rig when you need if concerned about extra line.

Agree to balance risk offshore and not messing things up.  

Jibe peels are great on some point to points in right conditions.

I like to put kite going down on changing sheet if possible.

Practice with some old kites.

 

ryley

Super Anarchist
5,516
666
Boston, MA
On the tack line, how long should a tack line be? It seems to me it should be long enough to allow a letter box drop without having to disconnect it. 
yes, try running the sheets through together. it generally works ok, and as pointed out it's not permanent, it'll be fine until you get things sorted.

As to the length of the 2nd tack line, don't worry about the letterbox - you need long sheets for that, you can just let the tack run. if you're letterboxing you're probably not worried about going back up with a kite anytime soon. I made my 2nd tack line as long as the other one, plus enough to run a 2:1 purchase from the end of the pole to the bow pulpit - I do this because *if* there is a chance I'll be running the code, I like to put the furler on the bow pulpit ahead of time so I only have to hook up the tack, hoist the code, then grind down the tack to the end of the pole. Doesn't happen very often but having the option of running the 2:1 is key. you can still put a kite on it if you end up not running the code.

 

3apc

Member
200
2
Toronto, now
Yes I'm thinking since the hardware is in place to go for the second tack line approach, if for no other reason then the bow team needs to learn one less thing this way. On the blocks, they are only as wide as one sheet, did you mean it's okay for the new active sheet to be on top of the old one, so there is a piece of line between the shive and new sheet? I can't see how that would work, but I'll run a few pieces of sheet in there and see what happens. 
Yeah, generally you can run two lines through the same block briefly (only needs to be done on the leeward side), then pull out the old one as you douse the old kite. Windward sheet can wait until the old sheets are below deck.

On the second peel (if that happens) would we hoist it outside since it's now on the upper halyard?
If you can hoist outside, yeah, but outside hoists are usually pretty messy and it may be faster to just set everything up and barehead it. If you peel (first peel) then gybe, the second peel can usually be done as an inside hoist on the upper halyard. You can always hoist inside on a [clear] lower halyard, but an upper halyard needs to be to windward of the kite if you want to hoist inside on it, else you end up wrapping the lower around the upper on the douse. That would lock you out of any more peels.

Remembering exactly where your halyards are, and where they were the last time you peeled, is an important skill at 3am a few days into a race.

 
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Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
On my 120, we run with a single tackline.   We use a strop to the bow for the new tack and we run a Martin breaker on the main tackline so that when you blow the tackline 7’ it triggers the shackle open.    After the tackline blows, bowman attaches it to the new kite tack and then pit grinds it out to the end of the spirit.  New kite goes up on the inside (lower) halyard.  We drop the old kite down the companionway using the lazy sheet trying to pull it under the boom to help blanket it.  
 

We definitely need more practice, but with the A team on the boat this usually goes off well.  
This is the sanest method in the list with a full crew.

Whether you get to hoist inside or outside depends on the halyard and you said yours a above/below, not side to side.  This gives more options as you cannot set up the kite and have already locked a halyard out but the bowman should always set on the upper halyard so that the new kite can be hoisted inside with no issues.  As listed by others, outside hoists look cool but the biggest problem is the friction of the old kite coming down inside of the old kite and the new kite will be wonky until the old kite is mostly down.

If you find yourself with the kite on the lower halyard I would do an outside hoist, which usually I am against, but your halyard configuration demands this.  The problems with doing an inside hoist on the upper halyard are several.  On a light air day doing an inside hoist with the upper halyard is going to disturb both sails so much during the hoist and take down it will risk a wrap on the headstay.  On a heavy air day the friction of the halyard basically having a 1/2 wrap on the lower halyard just isn't advisable.  On a medium air day you can probably get away with it.

 

IMR

Anarchist
582
115
SF Bay Area
So we were out practicing for the 2018 RBBS. Often on the Sunday bay tour race you need to go from a a3 to an a2 in the gybe. It’s a typical San Francisco Bay summer afternoon, small edd tide, breeze 18 to 20 tws. 
 

 So we set the boat up for a gybe peel with a Mexican drop of the a3 after the gybe.  New tack line out clew halfway back the weather side of the boat, 3,2,1 … swing boat down. Mast man rings the bell on the host new kites drawing before the main comes over. Main comes across, and for a second everything going to work.  Driver stops the swing up and it all goes pear shaped. 
 

So we have both the a2 up on the correct side of the boat, but now we also have the a3 up on the other side. Wing on wing if you will, the bow team is try like hell to get the clew down but with the boat fully loaded up there is nothing we can do. 
 

after a few seconds wing on wing rocking and rolling all over the place by the grace of god we round up the right way. Old kite into the rig proper wipe out, it takes forever to get the boat up and the old kite down.   The crowds at pier 39 got a show that day. 
 

Next weekend in race 7 we executed a perfect gybe peel. Make sure to practice. 
 

 
One more thing - another rule we follow is that we NEVER tie a stop knot at the end of any of our tack lines.

They need to run free and fast whenever required. I don't care how long they are. If you shrimp with a knot in the tack line, better have a knife ready.

 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
So we were out practicing for the 2018 RBBS. Often on the Sunday bay tour race you need to go from a a3 to an a2 in the gybe. It’s a typical San Francisco Bay summer afternoon, small edd tide, breeze 18 to 20 tws. 
 

 So we set the boat up for a gybe peel with a Mexican drop of the a3 after the gybe.  New tack line out clew halfway back the weather side of the boat, 3,2,1 … swing boat down. Mast man rings the bell on the host new kites drawing before the main comes over. Main comes across, and for a second everything going to work.  Driver stops the swing up and it all goes pear shaped. 
 

So we have both the a2 up on the correct side of the boat, but now we also have the a3 up on the other side. Wing on wing if you will, the bow team is try like hell to get the clew down but with the boat fully loaded up there is nothing we can do. 
 

after a few seconds wing on wing rocking and rolling all over the place by the grace of god we round up the right way. Old kite into the rig proper wipe out, it takes forever to get the boat up and the old kite down.   The crowds at pier 39 got a show that day. 
 

Next weekend in race 7 we executed a perfect gybe peel. Make sure to practice.
Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...

 

ropetrick

Super Anarchist
2,628
226
Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...
Just another day at the office, but they might owe me a new hat.

 

IMR

Anarchist
582
115
SF Bay Area
Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...
I don’t hate the bow team, they get excited when we execute a good move. Now they were not excited by the outcome of that shit show. For the record the bow team all stayed on the boat. We did have some one in the middle of the boat outside the fence in the wipe out. He went over the top Lifelines, I saw him going over and dropped everything to grab him and pull him back into the cockpit. He did loose a hat some maybe we could get a go fund me page set up for a new hat. 

 

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