Biden Gun Control

[bpm57]

Pelleteri had an eighteen shooter in 1991, after New Jersey wisely legislated that was over the top in NJ. Too bad for Pelleteri , in NJ.

He had a tube magazine in the censored caliber, something that we get constantly assured that "nobody wants to ban". Go figure, history says otherwise.

These battle guns are presently un-collectable, and you maintain that even the plinkers are gonners.

Well Joe, some of use actually read the legislation Brady/Giffords/Bloomburg wrote that have been introduced both federally and in various states. They have been quoted in here several times.

Many of those messages contained pictures of some of these far to dangerous for civilian ownership firearms. I can't help it if some of these firearms are used in ISSF target shooting.

Pointing this out to the sponsor of the legislation in NJ didn't even get a response, so either they don't understand the difference or don't care, because "guns bad" (except for the ones that protect legislators.)

 

[Jules]

The never ending spin on gun control...  When will it stop? 

Pass laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of those who should never have a gun in their possession.  How hard can that be?  Identify those who are only concerned about corporate profits and remove them from the conversation and maybe we can get sensible gun legislation passed.

 

[learningJ24]

The never ending spin on gun control...  When will it stop? 

Pass laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of those who should never have a gun in their possession.  How hard can that be?  Identify those who are only concerned about corporate profits and remove them from the conversation and maybe we can get sensible gun legislation passed.

It won't until the real issues are addressed.  Guns are just a proxy for much larger divisions and arguments; big government v small, white v others, urban v rural, elite v masses, individual v community etc. We can't move on gun issues is not that the radical gun rights guys don't care about the innocent victims, it's that they believe there are issues more important than the number of dead. Until that gap is addressed, we're arguing apples and aardvarks. 

 

[AJ Oliver]

I do not read tom's posts either - 

do any of you ?

 

[learningJ24]

Really try to avoid it.

 

[Jules]

It won't until the real issues are addressed.  Guns are just a proxy for much larger divisions and arguments; big government v small, white v others, urban v rural, elite v masses, individual v community etc. We can't move on gun issues is not that the radical gun rights guys don't care about the innocent victims, it's that they believe there are issues more important than the number of dead. Until that gap is addressed, we're arguing apples and aardvarks. 

But how did those things get into their heads?  Gun lobbyists, AKA the NRA.  Fear sells.

 

[Raz'r]

The Ruger0/Dogballs rimfire is so dangerous the Israelis stopped using it in favour of centrefire rifles with much higher power.

The English and New Zealanders still allow people to own these semi auto rimfire0/Dogballs, why do you think the US should have tougher laws with this type of firearm ?

Trick question? To piss off Tom, of course.

 

[learningJ24]

But how did those things get into their heads?  Gun lobbyists, AKA the NRA.  Fear sells.

We brought them from England, they are the divisions that have simmered here for 400 years.

 

[learningJ24]

Not at all. The modern gunnut is a conservative political reactionary against the modern world and it's perceived threat to their way of life.

Not arguing, but conservative political reactionaries have been around much longer than the gun debate. The NRA just leveraged the fracture when promoted by forced busing.  Louis Beam influenced this round of reaction with his "leaderless rebellion" and , later, moderating the language to "freedom" rather than "race war". Watch the Lee Attwater video again for the discussion of dogwhistles. 

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

He had a tube magazine in the censored caliber, something that we get constantly assured that "nobody wants to ban". Go figure, history says otherwise.

From the messenger attacks directed at me, I'd say most here did not know that ordinary squirrel guns in the censored caliber are "assault" weapons that TeamD wants to ban until I brought it up. I doubt any of them will admit that's the case, but so many have had an incredulous reaction that I believe they really didn't know just how far over the edge grabbers have gone.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

I would say that yes there ARE definitely more pressing issues to deal with.  

The top of my list would be the first amendment, but starting a thread on that topic doesn't ... um... trigger nearly as many messenger attacks as one on guns.

 

[learningJ24]

Given that the US murder rate is at a 51 year Low point, according the the FBI - I would say that yes there ARE definitely more pressing issues to deal with.  

Such as the growth of right wing extremist attacks?

 

[bpm57]

:lol:

the best thing about tomballs threads ares watching the own goals from team gunnut

I know that your ilk are fond of pretending that the NRA is the only group that spends money lobbying, yet bills with near identical wording appeared in multiple states and congress at the same time. It is an "own goal" to point this out?

Imagine.

 

[learningJ24]

I know that your ilk are fond of pretending that the NRA is the only group that spends money lobbying, yet bills with near identical wording appeared in multiple states and congress at the same time. It is an "own goal" to point this out?

Imagine.

I'll take ALEC for 100, Alex.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

It won't until the real issues are addressed.  Guns are just a proxy for much larger divisions and arguments; big government v small, white v others, urban v rural, elite v masses, individual v community etc. We can't move on gun issues is not that the radical gun rights guys don't care about the innocent victims, it's that they believe there are issues more important than the number of dead.

Well then, address a couple of them from the topic post.
 

Like the rest of the candidates from a certain part of the Duopoly, he thinks squirrel rifles and plinking pistols in the censored caliber are "weapons of war" which seems silly to me but I guess passes as common sense gun control. I won't say which part of the Duopoly since doing so seems to upset ben and I like him, but let's just say this fact has a liberal bias.

The big difference between his plan and Beto's is that Beto wants to take your "assault" weapons regardless of your wealth. Biden's idea is to take your property only if you can't come up with the $200 tax in the National Firearms Act, so basically is aimed at taking them from poor people. In any other context, people might point out that this disproportionately affects minorities. In this context, it's like New York and New Jersey charging hundreds of dollars for permission to exercise second amendment rights. Just common sense gun control.

FWIW, I agree with you that the whole "white v others" and "elite v masses" aspects of gun control are regressive and troubling. That is what you were trying to say, right?

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Given that the US murder rate is at a 51 year Low point, according the the FBI - I would say that yes there ARE definitely more pressing issues to deal with.  

It's definitely not pressing that the US is firmly in the third world when it comes to safety from homicide.  If we just let things continue the way they are, in a few more years we might be as safe as Cubans, Venezuelans, Kazakhstanis, Angolans, and Tanzanians. #KAG

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/murder-rate-by-country/

 

[learningJ24]

"FWIW, I agree with you that the whole "white v others" and "elite v masses" aspects of gun control are regressive and troubling. "

That's our Tom, with an area of focus .221  in diameter.

 

[jocal505]

Given that the US murder rate is at a 51 year Low point, according the the FBI - I would say that yes there ARE definitely more pressing issues to deal with.  

This is bullshit, Jeffie. No cite? Where did you get your wrong-ass figure? 

I got mine right here       https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/murder

Overview

• In 2017, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 17,284. This was a 0.7 percent decrease from the 2016 estimate, a 20.7 percent increase from the 2013 figure, and a 5.0 percent rise from the number in 2008. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)
  

• There were 5.3 murders per 100,000 people in 2017. The murder rate in 2017 was down from the rates in 2016 (1.4 percent) and 2008 (2.0 percent). However, the murder rate climbed 17.3 percent when compared with the 2013 rate. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)
  

• Of the estimated number of murders in the United States, 45.9 percent were reported in the South, 22.6 percent were reported in the Midwest, 20.2 percent were reported in the West, and 11.3 percent were reported in the Northeast. (See Table 3.)
  

According to the research, 39,773 people were fatally shot in 2017, a figure that has grown by more than 10,000 people since 1999. CDC data going back to 1979 shows that last year had the highest rates of gun deaths in nearly 40 years.  

https://time.com/5479993/gun-deaths-us-cdc/>

2015 and 2016 showed significant spikes, and they were based in big cities. The pattern did not continue, 2017 leveleled off and did not get worse.

 

[Raz'r]

From the messenger attacks directed at me, I'd say most here did not know that ordinary squirrel guns in the censored caliber are "assault" weapons that TeamD wants to ban until I brought it up. I doubt any of them will admit that's the case, but so many have had an incredulous reaction that I believe they really didn't know just how far over the edge grabbers have gone.

given the utter lack of usefullness of a dogballs cal weapon to a militia, yeah, they should be banned.

 

[VhmSays]

In 2017, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 17,284. This was a 0.7 percent decrease from the 2016 estimate, a 20.7 percent increase from the 2013 figure, and a 5.0 percent rise from the number in 2008.

His chart ends 2014 and your numbers seem to show a low point ~2013 and in that you both are right.

The murder rates seem to be trending down again in the last 3 years following the trend from the early '90s barring a small spike in 2015-16 (4.9 and 5.3). Last year i.e. 2018 the rate was down to 5 from the 2017 5.3 which was itself 0.7% lower than 2016. 

5.3 is the 2017 figure, the average from the '70s to the '90s was above 8, spiking over 10. In the last 30 years the rates have almost halved, along with the improved reporting and scrutiny leading to less murders written off as natural causes. It obviously could be better, should be a few decimals at least, I wouldn't trust 0s for this population size.

Latest figures are here, just change the 2018s in the address to whichever years data you want

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/topic-pages/murder

BTW the FBI numbers are a bit wonky in 2016 & 17, 34 more murders in 2017 which supposedly translates to a decrease of 0.7%. That may be due to reclassification or some such, finding out that it was a murder or not.