Biden Gun Control

Bagheera

Member
457
551
Alaska
Funny that it is mostly bible quoting christian extremists that are pro-guns. They claim to be pro life and claim to uphold the bible and the constitution, how far removed from reality...

Guns are invented, optimized and sold for the single purpose of killing. The sixth commandment says 'Thou shall not kill'. So why the fuck would you collect tools that only have one single purpose if you claim to uphold the word of god?
Pro life? fuck you if you own weapons that are designed for mass killing.

When the founding fathers wrote and signed the constitution, it was intended to be interpreted in the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. The second amendment was written to allow citizens of good standing to form a well organized militia so that the USA did not require a large standing army with all its associated cost (They would turn over in their urns if they knew about the current spending on 'defense'). Weapons for mass killing also did not exist at the time of introduction. 2a was never intended to give every nut job unlimited access to guns and ammo, hell, the founding fathers did not even consider it important enough to include it in the constitution. It had to be added to it years later.

Speaking of the founding fathers, they were also of the opinion that if you are not a white male that is also a land owner, you are supposed to stay out of politics and don't even think about voting. In this day and age, half of the founding fathers' opinions would not have been taken serious on anything because they are considered 'to young to have any life experience', heck, the youngest one was barely old enough to be allowed to drink a beer.

If gun control is so bad, why are we not allowed to own, drive and operate our own Abraham tanks? or have anti aircraft guns in our back yard? or dirty bombs in our basement? Why not, most of them will be in de hands of 'good guys', so there should be no danger there!

Presidents cannot change the constitution or any of its amendments. In order to make changes, the following steps need to be taken:
- Amendment needs to be proposed,
- Both the house and the senate need to approve with a 2/3 majority,
- When passed by both houses, at least 38 of the 50 states need to ratify the amendment.
There will not be a single proposal that will pass through any of those steps due to the extreme polarization in the current political climate. The president has absolutely zero influence on this entire process, but every time a democratic president is elected, the gun lobbyists are predicting hell and doom and tell everybody to grab this very last chance to stock up on guns and ammo before it is too late. The gullible RWNJ lose their shit every single time and spend all the money they can possibly find on getting more guns and ammo. All the while, the gun manufacturers are laughing all the way to their stock broker for stock buy backs.

The USA does not have a left wing (politically speaking). The most 'radical left' politicians in the USA are the likes of Bernie Sanders and AOC. They would be considered centralists in the rest of the modern world. They are fighting for some basic rights that every single other modern nation on earth has already had for many decades (speaking of freedom, you Americans that have not traveled/worked/lived abroad have absolutely no clue what freedom actually is!!). All they are suggesting is to make it less easy to buy guns as an impulse.

I'm a liberal, I own guns myself, as does pretty much any other liberal in Alaska. I hunt for food and live in the area with the highest bear density in the world. Some years ago I picked up a .44 Smith and Wesson for when I go on hikes with the family (bears are on my property on a daily basis when not hibernating), it was at a garage sale without any paperwork what so f'ing ever. OK, it only holds 5 bullets at most, so hardly suitable for mass shootings, but it is the thought that counts. In the local store I can also buy as much ammo as my heart desires without them even knowing who I am or how old I am. I also have a 6.5x55mm hunting rifle that is 20 years older than myself which I use to get black tails in the freezer. If I have to jump through some hoops of paperwork and back ground checks and showing of ID to be able to own those guns and be able to buy ammo, I would gladly do that to make the world a safer place for the kids in our schools. When I immigrated to the USA, I had to wait 10 months before I could get medical insurance or a drivers license, but I was allowed to buy a gun with ammo and a concealed carrying permit right away. I get asked for my ID almost every single time when ordering a beer in a restaurant (I'm 41!), but I can buy 10 cases of rifle ammo without anybody betting an eyelid. Truly fucked up priorities in this country.
 
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Mark_K

Super Anarchist
No, I'm not. Your second question assumes a wrong answer and should be something about fantasies of harm coming from asking simple questions.

Why would it matter if a shotgun, battlefield or otherwise, could do what an AR or a battlefield .22 could do?

If called for militia service, to resist a nincomcoup for example, which do you think would be a better militia weapon: a battlefield .22 pistol like mine, something we know is constitutionally protected like Dick Heller's 9 round .22 revolver (BACK THE BLUE), or an AR-15 in .223 that expert testimony says could cut a person right in half?

Please note that neither of those say anything about my killing a whole bunch of people, nor anything about a single shot cutting anyone in half.
I thought you said you were getting ready to fight a war. Indeed you did, pretty much, which is why you insist on a weapon with devastating fire power and a very large mag. You do insist on that massive mag capacity to kill a lot of people in a hurry, right?

Or is it a toy?
 

Bagheera

Member
457
551
Alaska
A video on how the rest of the world thinks about the American gun fetish, please have more than 14 seconds of patience, it is actually spoken in English:
 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
65,074
2,436
Punta Gorda FL
I thought you said you were getting ready to fight a war. Indeed you did, pretty much, which is why you insist on a weapon with devastating fire power and a very large mag. You do insist on that massive mag capacity to kill a lot of people in a hurry, right?

Or is it a toy?

No, I actually asked you about resisting a nincomcoup. The last one was put down with a single shot, you know.

I do own the battlefield .22 pictured above and I'm working on extending the magazine capacity from 10 to 11, so I guess that counts as "very large" in your book?

I insist on the 11 round capacity to annoy grabbers, as I've said, but I do believe 11 rounds is slightly more potentially useful than 10 in militia service.

Guns aren't toys. To answer my question, since you would not, I think an AR15 would be the most effective militia weapon. Anything that US Marine experts insist can cut a person in half with a single round could be useful, right?
 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
65,074
2,436
Punta Gorda FL
If gun control is so bad, why are we not allowed to own, drive and operate our own Abraham tanks?
There are a couple of potential reasons.

The Supreme Court of Massachusetts said that the main reason is because, while the rest of the Bill of Rights covers any new technology to come along, the Second Amendment only covers technology that existed when it was ratified.

The US Supreme Court overturned that result.

Before I go further, can you tell me which Supreme Court you believe got that question right?
 

Bagheera

Member
457
551
Alaska
Before I go further, can you tell me which Supreme Court you believe got that question right?
My opinion is irrelevant. Even the supreme court is nothing more than the opinion of a handful of people and is to some extent therefore also irrelevant. Give it another 15 or 20 years and the group of judges on the SC is changed, likely resulting in an opinion change. Take the Roe vs Wade rulings as an example. The supreme court ruled in 1973 in one way while last year, with a totally different group of judges, it ruled the total opposite, interpreting the same text. This indicates that every single Supreme Court decision is nothing more than the opinion of a handful of people, that in many cases have a personal bias that they can't set aside when ruling.

The fact that the SCOTUS overrules an individual states' Supreme Court with a very different ruling based on the same documents is the perfect example of what I'm trying to explain here. Most constitutions include the decision making strategy in it. I already brought it up in my previous post: is it to be interpreted in the spirit of the law or to the letter of the law when those two are opposing. The result of the ruling can be very different. The US constitution does not have a paragraph included on this and that is the cause that the USA is one of the few countries in the world that is repeating the same debates over and over again.

So you asking me for my opinion on two different interpretations of the same text is irrelevant. What in my opinion is relevant is the historic context, and that one is very clear if one reads some historical books on this subject.

The founding fathers were fighting for separation from the British Empire and when writing the constitution they were of the opinion that the British Justice System was too difficult to work with as the letter of the law was to overrule the spirit of the law. Therefore a lawyer that can make a good argument that the letter of the law is not applicable in a specific case can get his client get away with a crime that would have been very clearly a crime when the spirit of the law is the leading factor. Their intention was to turn this around from the British system. Unfortunately they forgot to include it in the document and therefore it was nothing more than their intention and it never made it into law.

When you read the rulings of the SC decisions (have you actually done that?), it is very clear that it is basically an argument of spirit vs letter of the second amendment. When looking back to the historic context of the document, it is also very clear that it was intended to reduce the cost of the US army which was founded 16 years prior to admitting that document. There were only 13 states at the time and Vermont was about to be admitted to the Union as well. The cost of the army for the 15 years it had been in place was far too expensive and the idea was to arm 'well organized militia's' in addition to the army and that these militia's were allowed to be properly armed to fulfil the function of army support. In addition, they wanted to be able to call on an army of well armed men in case of a rogue army commander that was leading towards a coup or insurrection and would be able to fight off the US army in such an event.

In the end, the US constitution is very poorly written and leaves too much room for interpretation, hence some of the debates of interpretation that have been ongoing for centuries. In all honesty, these debates will never be settled either, unless amendments to the constitution are made. As I explained before, that is never going to happen in the current political climate as there will never be a 2/3rd majority in both the house and the senate and you'll never find 38 states that will agree with each other. So that is nothing more than an unrealistic pipe dream and for a large part responsible for the polarization that is currently ongoing in the US of A.

The US constitution was made up and signed by 55 individuals, only 25 of them were lawyers by title and some of them only had been so for a few years. So basically the US law is based on the good intentions of a group of people that had little knowledge about law and ruling, and it shows in how the document was written.

Circling back to your question about what I believe? Well, reading through both rulings I think that neither was done so in the spirit of the second amendment and therefore neither was as it was intended by the founding fathers.

But hey, that is just my opinion.
Now your turn; you explain to me why I can't drive a tank and shoot grenades all over the place?
 

hasher

Super Anarchist
7,622
1,456
Insanity
There would not have been a 1776 if it wasn't for the Dutch supplying weapons to the anti-british movement. You're welcome!
 

veni vidi vici

Veni Vidi Ego Dubito
11,589
3,188
.

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Mark_K

Super Anarchist
No, I actually asked you about resisting a nincomcoup. The last one was put down with a single shot, you know.

I do own the battlefield .22 pictured above and I'm working on extending the magazine capacity from 10 to 11, so I guess that counts as "very large" in your book?

I insist on the 11 round capacity to annoy grabbers, as I've said, but I do believe 11 rounds is slightly more potentially useful than 10 in militia service.

Guns aren't toys. To answer my question, since you would not, I think an AR15 would be the most effective militia weapon. Anything that US Marine experts insist can cut a person in half with a single round could be useful, right?
A simple admission you want them so you can slaughter a lot of people in a hurry would've saved a lot of typing. Now about this "militia" you are joining so you can legally slaughter a lot of people: How is it regulated? Has to be well or it's not the sort of militia the Constitution is referring to.
 

veni vidi vici

Veni Vidi Ego Dubito
11,589
3,188
A simple admission you want them so you can slaughter a lot of people in a hurry would've saved a lot of typing. Now about this "militia" you are joining so you can legally slaughter a lot of people: How is it regulated? Has to be well or it's not the sort of militia the Constitution is referring to.
Don’t worry about it, freedom is not for everyone. Plenty of failed nanny states that you are free to join.
So you want to be an artist, take the exam in China

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