Bloopers

[Burnsy]

Other boat was a 32 ft 1986 Beneteau. Didn't do shit for us for speed, but we looked GOOOOOOOOD crossing the finish line at Mackinac Island with four sails up (stay sail wasn't helping much either)!

That wasn't the BYC Mac a few years ago was it? I remember seeing a green-hulled boat that looked like a deranged butterfly... Main, Spin, Staysail, and Blooper up. Craziest thing I ever did saw.

 

[shrek]

This is the reason I love lurking around this joint. My E35 was almost stable downwind in a breeze with the bloop up...almost.

 

[Boatzilla]

I saw a blooper last race, two weeks ago. Think it was on a Morgan 36.

At first it was pretty confusing to figure out was I was looking at. Once I figured out it was a bloop, I told my crew to turn around - no one had ever seen such a thing.

 

[P_Wop]

The blooper gybe - the bowman's friend when it came to uncrossing spin halyards after one too many kite peels offshore, without going up the rig. Lots of halyard ease as you gybe, and wash the blooper right round the front of the kite, just like outside gybing an A-sail, but running the sheet on the new side at the same time. Hey presto, all settled in on the new gybe, and the kite halyards are now nicely and magically uncrossed.

Unless you were a bit muddled in the head department while planning the deal, and managed a nightmare double-cross up there. Extra points if you included the headstay and at least one jib halyard in the macrame. Plank-and-strop bosun's chairs were such a comforting way to spent 20 minutes aloft untangling everything.

 

[Icedtea]

On today's front page the esteemed Ed has posted an article which seems to disparage bloopers. This seems strange to me; over many decades I have found them to be super useful on boats that sail deep in big breeze. On my own (CCA) boat, in any event, they change big breeze downwind rides from a nailbiting "wait for the crash" into being on rails with superpower like ability to drive 20 degrees either side of DDW. It was the same back in the (hated) IOR lead mines, but in my view any boat with symetrical kites would benefit in sufficient breeze.
Any comments?

By the way, I am a newbie to SA posting so bring on the flame.

I agree with you but people seem to just be opting for a large Symmetrical instead of a small one and a blooper but I do think that they still have a place.

But to be honest I think A sails are the way to go.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Other boat was a 32 ft 1986 Beneteau. Didn't do shit for us for speed, but we looked GOOOOOOOOD crossing the finish line at Mackinac Island with four sails up (stay sail wasn't helping much either)!

That wasn't the BYC Mac a few years ago was it? I remember seeing a green-hulled boat that looked like a deranged butterfly... Main, Spin, Staysail, and Blooper up. Craziest thing I ever did saw.

We finished that way on Critical Mass in '05 I think - white hull, neon green stripe. Slow as shit, but looked hawt.

 

[SF Woody Sailor]

On today's front page the esteemed Ed has posted an article which seems to disparage bloopers. This seems strange to me; over many decades I have found them to be super useful on boats that sail deep in big breeze. On my own (CCA) boat, in any event, they change big breeze downwind rides from a nailbiting "wait for the crash" into being on rails with superpower like ability to drive 20 degrees either side of DDW. It was the same back in the (hated) IOR lead mines, but in my view any boat with symetrical kites would benefit in sufficient breeze.
Any comments?

By the way, I am a newbie to SA posting so bring on the flame.

I agree with you but people seem to just be opting for a large Symmetrical instead of a small one and a blooper but I do think that they still have a place.

But to be honest I think A sails are the way to go.

Having sailed with both I don't think I agree. The A sails seem to me a lot less tactical since the option of sailing deep is taken off the table, and in addition they can be a pain in the ass to gybe and douse in big breeze compared to symmetrical kites. The J-120's, for example, are very difficult for even the most experienced crew to handle here in SF in about 19 knots which is the upper end of the range of the bigger A sail. In contrast, a good crew can do any kind of set, gybe or douse with a symmetrical kite in substantially more breeze with confidence.

 

[neuronz]

Having sailed with both I don't think I agree. The A sails seem to me a lot less tactical since the option of sailing deep is taken off the table, and in addition they can be a pain in the ass to gybe and douse in big breeze compared to symmetrical kites. The J-120's, for example, are very difficult for even the most experienced crew to handle here in SF in about 19 knots which is the upper end of the range of the bigger A sail. In contrast, a good crew can do any kind of set, gybe or douse with a symmetrical kite in substantially more breeze with confidence.

having also done both in a good breeze i have to say a-sail-gybing is a lot easier, you don't need anybody on the foredeck, just blow the sheet and then pull the new sheet. we needed 5 (6) people (helm, trimmer, afterguytrimmer, bow, control lines, (mainsailtrimmer)) to gybe a symmetrical kite, with an a-sail we needed only two, max. 3.

we sometimes sheet in a bit tighter to have the kite under control before gybing, this keeps the kite from turning to windward when we start the gybe.

on bigboats people sometimes gybe the a-sails around the luff which can be easier than to pull it through luff and forestay.

 

[equivocator]

As has been noted, the blooper was invented to provide additional DW sail area in the early days of IOR, largely because the early versions of the IOR rule imposed a heavy penalty on mainsail area, and much less on headsail area. This led to the short boom/ high aspect mains & mammoth foretriangles common on early IOR designs. Also, in the early days, there were no girth or foot round restrictions on headsails, so the early blooper designs were cut with lots of foot round and were as wide up high as possible. After a while, both these dimensions were controlled, which made the sails a lot smaller, less stable, and harder to fly. Later on after the sail area penalties were adjusted, mains became larger and foretriangles smaller, and with larger mains, the blooper was much less necessary because the boats had more DW sail area, and less useful because the bigger mains made it even harder to fly the blooper. Later IOR designs were also lighter, which meant that DW angles opened up, and it was faster (e.g., better VMG) to reach up a bit than go DDW in the newer boats. Those factors pretty much ended the reign of the blooper as a useful racing sail.

In the day, many boats had 0.75 and 1.5 oz. bloopers, plus a whole boatload of staysails (tall, big, genoa, storm, etc) to keep those big foretriangles working efficiently.

 

[equivocator]

On the A-sail v. S-sail controversy, I have been sailing on a boat with both in the inventory. Over the years, we have used the S-sails only once or twice, mostly because the A-sails just plain work better, especially in the lighter wind common here. I think that is because the longer luff and designed leading and trailing edges on the A-sails make them better aerodynamically. The crews on J/120's have trouble in breeze because their spinnakers are so damn big. They'd be a lot easier to handle if they were closer to the usual sizes for the basic boat dimensions.

 

[johnnysaint]

 

[moody frog]

As has been noted, the blooper was invented to provide additional DW sail area in the early days of IOR, largely because the early versions of the IOR rule imposed a heavy penalty on mainsail area, and much less on headsail area. This led to the short boom/ high aspect mains & mammoth foretriangles common on early IOR designs. Also, in the early days, there were no girth or foot round restrictions on headsails, so the early blooper designs were cut with lots of foot round and were as wide up high as possible. After a while, both these dimensions were controlled, which made the sails a lot smaller, less stable, and harder to fly. Later on after the sail area penalties were adjusted, mains became larger and foretriangles smaller, and with larger mains, the blooper was much less necessary because the boats had more DW sail area, and less useful because the bigger mains made it even harder to fly the blooper. Later IOR designs were also lighter, which meant that DW angles opened up, and it was faster (e.g., better VMG) to reach up a bit than go DDW in the newer boats. Those factors pretty much ended the reign of the blooper as a useful racing sail.
In the day, many boats had 0.75 and 1.5 oz. bloopers, plus a whole boatload of staysails (tall, big, genoa, storm, etc) to keep those big foretriangles working efficiently.

+ 1 could not explain it better

 

[Bryanjb]

Some of the new IRC boats like the King 40 could probably benefit from the additional sail area of a blooper. Compare the King 40 to a Farr 40 Weight ~ 16k vs 11k, SA ~ 930 sq ft vs 1100 sq ft. Time will tell.

 

[planenut]

Long live Cash Flow USA 83015 8knot shit box that still wins races!with a blooper.

A 8kt s___t box that turns like my tasar.

.

 

[SF Woody Sailor]

As has been noted, the blooper was invented to provide additional DW sail area in the early days of IOR, largely because the early versions of the IOR rule imposed a heavy penalty on mainsail area, and much less on headsail area. This led to the short boom/ high aspect mains & mammoth foretriangles common on early IOR designs. Also, in the early days, there were no girth or foot round restrictions on headsails, so the early blooper designs were cut with lots of foot round and were as wide up high as possible. After a while, both these dimensions were controlled, which made the sails a lot smaller, less stable, and harder to fly. Later on after the sail area penalties were adjusted, mains became larger and foretriangles smaller, and with larger mains, the blooper was much less necessary because the boats had more DW sail area, and less useful because the bigger mains made it even harder to fly the blooper. Later IOR designs were also lighter, which meant that DW angles opened up, and it was faster (e.g., better VMG) to reach up a bit than go DDW in the newer boats. Those factors pretty much ended the reign of the blooper as a useful racing sail.
In the day, many boats had 0.75 and 1.5 oz. bloopers, plus a whole boatload of staysails (tall, big, genoa, storm, etc) to keep those big foretriangles working efficiently.

+ 1 could not explain it better

I respectfully disagree; the blooper was never (primarily) about adding additional downwind square footage but rather about making the boat controllable DDW in big breeze.

In almost any symmetrical-kite, displacement boat the polars at 25+ knots of true wind will point you close to DDW so the goal is to sail as low as possible; a blooper makes this a much easier option even if it is completely blanketed by a low aspect main as the airlow into the blooper is out of the spinnaker not from behind the leech of the main. This is what counteracts and reduces the rolling.

Obviously this was more relevant in the IOR days of high aspect mainsails, small rudders and pinched-ass designs like the Ranger 37 which loved to roll (random tangent: anyone remember the 198x Ranger 37 Worlds in SF when every single boat rounded down on the same leg?) as opposed to more modern designs with broad sterns and large rudders.

Not all of us race a brand new TP52, and it seems to me that bloopers still have their place for symmetrical-kite, displacement boats sailing dead downwind in large breeze.

On the A-Sail vs S-Sail controversy; I would suggest the division is between tacticians and crew. For crewmembers I can certainly see the attractions of the A-sail. As a tactician I think they are a crime against humanity.

Flame on.

 

[Go Left]

As has been noted, the blooper was invented to provide additional DW sail area in the early days of IOR, largely because the early versions of the IOR rule imposed a heavy penalty on mainsail area, and much less on headsail area. This led to the short boom/ high aspect mains & mammoth foretriangles common on early IOR designs. Also, in the early days, there were no girth or foot round restrictions on headsails, so the early blooper designs were cut with lots of foot round and were as wide up high as possible. After a while, both these dimensions were controlled, which made the sails a lot smaller, less stable, and harder to fly. Later on after the sail area penalties were adjusted, mains became larger and foretriangles smaller, and with larger mains, the blooper was much less necessary because the boats had more DW sail area, and less useful because the bigger mains made it even harder to fly the blooper. Later IOR designs were also lighter, which meant that DW angles opened up, and it was faster (e.g., better VMG) to reach up a bit than go DDW in the newer boats. Those factors pretty much ended the reign of the blooper as a useful racing sail.
In the day, many boats had 0.75 and 1.5 oz. bloopers, plus a whole boatload of staysails (tall, big, genoa, storm, etc) to keep those big foretriangles working efficiently.

+ 1 could not explain it better

I respectfully disagree; the blooper was never (primarily) about adding additional downwind square footage but rather about making the boat controllable DDW in big breeze.

In almost any symmetrical-kite, displacement boat the polars at 25+ knots of true wind will point you close to DDW so the goal is to sail as low as possible; a blooper makes this a much easier option even if it is completely blanketed by a low aspect main as the airlow into the blooper is out of the spinnaker not from behind the leech of the main. This is what counteracts and reduces the rolling.

Obviously this was more relevant in the IOR days of high aspect mainsails, small rudders and pinched-ass designs like the Ranger 37 which loved to roll (random tangent: anyone remember the 198x Ranger 37 Worlds in SF when every single boat rounded down on the same leg?) as opposed to more modern designs with broad sterns and large rudders.

Not all of us race a brand new TP52, and it seems to me that bloopers still have their place for symmetrical-kite, displacement boats sailing dead downwind in large breeze.

On the A-Sail vs S-Sail controversy; I would suggest the division is between tacticians and crew. For crewmembers I can certainly see the attractions of the A-sail. As a tactician I think they are a crime against humanity.

Flame on.

Don't y'all hate it when you are both right?

Below 20 = extra sail area.

Above 20 = Anti-pucker device for the driver heading DDW (but NEVER faster than TWS!).

 

[aurichor]

As has been noted, the blooper was invented to provide additional DW sail area in the early days of IOR, largely because the early versions of the IOR rule imposed a heavy penalty on mainsail area, and much less on headsail area. This led to the short boom/ high aspect mains & mammoth foretriangles common on early IOR designs. Also, in the early days, there were no girth or foot round restrictions on headsails, so the early blooper designs were cut with lots of foot round and were as wide up high as possible. After a while, both these dimensions were controlled, which made the sails a lot smaller, less stable, and harder to fly. Later on after the sail area penalties were adjusted, mains became larger and foretriangles smaller, and with larger mains, the blooper was much less necessary because the boats had more DW sail area, and less useful because the bigger mains made it even harder to fly the blooper. Later IOR designs were also lighter, which meant that DW angles opened up, and it was faster (e.g., better VMG) to reach up a bit than go DDW in the newer boats. Those factors pretty much ended the reign of the blooper as a useful racing sail.
In the day, many boats had 0.75 and 1.5 oz. bloopers, plus a whole boatload of staysails (tall, big, genoa, storm, etc) to keep those big foretriangles working efficiently.

+ 1 could not explain it better

I respectfully disagree; the blooper was never (primarily) about adding additional downwind square footage but rather about making the boat controllable DDW in big breeze.

In almost any symmetrical-kite, displacement boat the polars at 25+ knots of true wind will point you close to DDW so the goal is to sail as low as possible; a blooper makes this a much easier option even if it is completely blanketed by a low aspect main as the airlow into the blooper is out of the spinnaker not from behind the leech of the main. This is what counteracts and reduces the rolling.

Obviously this was more relevant in the IOR days of high aspect mainsails, small rudders and pinched-ass designs like the Ranger 37 which loved to roll (random tangent: anyone remember the 198x Ranger 37 Worlds in SF when every single boat rounded down on the same leg?) as opposed to more modern designs with broad sterns and large rudders.

Not all of us race a brand new TP52, and it seems to me that bloopers still have their place for symmetrical-kite, displacement boats sailing dead downwind in large breeze.

On the A-Sail vs S-Sail controversy; I would suggest the division is between tacticians and crew. For crewmembers I can certainly see the attractions of the A-sail. As a tactician I think they are a crime against humanity.

Flame on.

As a bowman I HATE asails.

 

[ILYAsailor90]

Some Chicago and Detroit Anarchist might appreciate this one



North American 40 Cannoneer 1978 Chi to Mac