bluffs, blarney, blather, and bullshit

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,420
1,203
Melbourne
Hmmmm. Notwithstanding 5 or 6 major wars and a flu pandemic, the Old Mug has proved tolerably hardy since 1851. Just sayin.
True but what were the boats and their relative cost at the time.? Australia and Alan Bond would never have won the Cup if it were on AC75's and not 12 Meters?  My point is the relative cost of the AC75's in today's COVID affected economy. 

P.S. I hope you are right SBD..!

 
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dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,485
1,367
South Coast, UK
Hmmmm. Notwithstanding 5 or 6 major wars and a flu pandemic, the Old Mug has proved tolerably hardy since 1851. Just sayin.
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

 

rh3000

Super Anarchist
3,693
1,725
Auckland, New Zealand
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
That's LE not AC...

 

NeedAClew

Super Anarchist
5,986
1,665
USA
True but what were the boats and their relative cost at the time.? Australia and Alan Bond would never have won the Cup if it were on AC75's and not 12 Meters?  My point is the relative cost of the AC75's in today's COVID affected economy. 

P.S. I hope you are right SBD..!
The ultrarich in America got even richer during covid.  Not surprised if that's true of other countries, too.  Jeff Bezos is going into space ffs. 

Problem for "covid affected economy" is if you want money from venues and governments.  If you just let billionaires not looking to break even play their 1 on 1 games, no money issue.

 

Sisu3360

Anarchist
610
198
What has the Cup to do with everyday sailing? 

You always needed shit loads of money to compete in the Cup. It has absolutely no meaning for a girl, boy or x in an Opti, never had. 
You know, people like me keep saying that the Cup is no longer relatable and people like you keep saying "it's never had anything to do with the average sailor."

OK, sure, BUT...

In 1920 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 1960 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 1980 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 2007 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 2021 the average adult sailor is sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup is sailing foilers.

Whether by design or not, it's an objective fact that the America's Cup used to be more relatable to average sailors.

While the America's Cup has always been dominated by wealthy patrons, it's now moved into a regime of sailing where there rest of us - and I hate to sound like certain politicians here - are getting left behind. Most of us can barely afford to field a club racing program in a 30+ year old keelboat, but at least when the Cup was in keelboats we were watching people operate the boat in fundamentally the same way as our own boats.

If the America's Cup is to represent "progress, and damn everything else," then fine, but I really think that the Cup is worse off for losing its relatability to the form of the sport that most of us play. I mean, if the Rugby World Cup switched to American Football in the name of progress and money, wouldn't at least a few Kiwis be upset? Sure, it's fun to watch, and it's still a game played on a rectangular field where two teams try to advance an oblong ball towards the end of the field, but it's fundamentally not the same game you grew up playing on the schoolyard.

 
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Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
10,478
2,006
You know, people like me keep saying that the Cup is no longer relatable and people like you keep saying "it's never had anything to do with the average sailor."

OK, sure, BUT...

In 1920 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 1960 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 1980 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 2007 the average adult sailor was sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup was sailing displacement keelboats.

In 2021 the average adult sailor is sailing a displacement keelboat. The America's Cup is sailing foilers.

Whether by design or not, it's an objective fact that the America's Cup used to be more relatable to average sailors.

While the America's Cup has always been dominated by wealthy patrons, it's now moved into a regime of sailing where there rest of us - and I hate to sound like certain politicians here - are getting left behind. Most of us can barely afford to field a club racing program in a 30+ year old keelboat, but at least when the Cup was in keelboats we were watching people operate the boat in fundamentally the same way as our own boats.

If the America's Cup is to represent "progress, and damn everything else," then fine, but I really think that the Cup is worse off for losing its relatability to the form of the sport that most of us play. I mean, if the Rugby World Cup switched to American Football in the name of progress and money, wouldn't at least a few Kiwis be upset? Sure, it's fun to watch, and it's still a game played on a rectangular field where two teams try to advance an oblong ball towards the end of the field, but it's fundamentally not the same game you grew up playing on the schoolyard.
You are taking my post above and put it into a different context as it was written for. A nice rhetoric trick, but too obvious. 

I'll explain anyway to avoid further misunderstandings. 

I agree with you regarding the kind of boat, but not the circumstances. The "normal sailor's" Wednesday night regatta has nothing to do with a regatta for the America's Cup. Almost never had. Buying an Opti or even a day cruiser is a completely different matter than building an AC boat. These are two separate worlds. 

Even the regulations differ, with the AC having its own set of RRS. 

 

Sisu3360

Anarchist
610
198
You are taking my post above and put it into a different context as it was written for. A nice rhetoric trick, but too obvious. 

I'll explain anyway to avoid further misunderstandings. 

I agree with you regarding the kind of boat, but not the circumstances. The "normal sailor's" Wednesday night regatta has nothing to do with a regatta for the America's Cup. Almost never had. Buying an Opti or even a day cruiser is a completely different matter than building an AC boat. These are two separate worlds. 

Even the regulations differ, with the AC having its own set of RRS. 
I'll admit I took the above posts slightly out of order, as the discussion quickly shifted to 12 Meter nostalgia, hence me chiming in on boat type.

Nevertheless, I still disagree. It used to have more to do with the "normal sailor." For example, I just got into organized match racing and really love it. Once upon a time match racing had the AC as its apex. You could watch the IACCs duking it out and basically be watching an advanced form of the same regatta that you're doing at the amateur level in borrowed Sonars. Nowadays it's unrecognizable. You'll have a rare mildly close port/starboard and the commentators all say "Look! Match racing!"

The boat type doesn't take all of the blame but it's a big part of it. You mention the RRS. The AC used to have very few differences with the rules and courses we all sail by. The changes we've seen have largely been driven by boats that are too fast for the normal rules to apply.

I agree that a Cup campaign is unlike any other sailing pursuit from an organizational perspective, but even there the delta from the Corinthian level has grown so much. In the 12 Meter era the full-time campaign was a few months, and it was really just a supercharged version of any other high-dollar sailing campaign. Some people sponsored offshore boats, others threw their money at Cup campaigns. Heck, there were even some owner/drivers as late as the '80s. Now it's an extremely specialized, multiyear ordeal. I don't know how to put that genie back away. Maybe we can just wait until the Cup implodes under its own weight, then start over.

 

dg_sailingfan

Super Anarchist
2,678
515
Augsburg
Epic Fail..! Haven't you heard of anarchist David? He goes under many names or did?  Not sure why Anarchist David get's so much air time at SA? Anyway onto the matter in hand I think Grant Dalton needs to be very careful with what he has in mind? Also what percentage of Dalton's care is entrenched into the future of the team vs Financial Interests of his own or other parties? When large amounts of "MONEY" are key to the issue in question the skies become clouded and ulterior motives come into play IMO. The Americas Cup could well capitulate because of money and the impact of COVID. Dangerous times ahead for the lovers of ETNZ and the event itself.!
There is nothing dangerous what Grant Dalton is doing! He is doing what's best for the Team.

And to be quite frank Auckland isn't that great of a Venue either. What we have seen during AC36 is that the most likely Wind Direction in the NZ Summer is Northeasterly Sea Breezes and those winds barely pop over 15 knots. Most of the time it was well below 10 knots. I want to see these Boats ripping in 15-20 knots to show the world what they can do. Even Pete Burling, Glenn Ashby said that this was their big regret.

The 2nd Major Talking Point should be the TV Audience. Having to stay up in the middle of the Night is no good at all and having two European Teams competing Europe is a big Market!

Cowes would be the perfect Venue. There is always reasonable strong wind in the Summer because of Weather Systems hopping over the UK.

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
10,478
2,006
I'll admit I took the above posts slightly out of order, as the discussion quickly shifted to 12 Meter nostalgia, hence me chiming in on boat type.

Nevertheless, I still disagree. It used to have more to do with the "normal sailor." For example, I just got into organized match racing and really love it. Once upon a time match racing had the AC as its apex. You could watch the IACCs duking it out and basically be watching an advanced form of the same regatta that you're doing at the amateur level in borrowed Sonars. Nowadays it's unrecognizable. You'll have a rare mildly close port/starboard and the commentators all say "Look! Match racing!"

The boat type doesn't take all of the blame but it's a big part of it. You mention the RRS. The AC used to have very few differences with the rules and courses we all sail by. The changes we've seen have largely been driven by boats that are too fast for the normal rules to apply.

I agree that a Cup campaign is unlike any other sailing pursuit from an organizational perspective, but even there the delta from the Corinthian level has grown so much. In the 12 Meter era the full-time campaign was a few months, and it was really just a supercharged version of any other high-dollar sailing campaign. Some people sponsored offshore boats, others threw their money at Cup campaigns. Heck, there were even some owner/drivers as late as the '80s. Now it's an extremely specialized, multiyear ordeal. I don't know how to put that genie back away. Maybe we can just wait until the Cup implodes under its own weight, then start over.
You're not wrong, but this post might interest you:



Nevertheless I still think that the AC plays in a completely different league than your round-the-cans regatta. Both are not comparable, or was your "normal sailor" a millionaire in the days of yore, or is a billionaire now? 

I even think that if the AC had never existed, almost all other sailing would be here regardless. 

 

enigmatically2

Super Anarchist
3,076
1,597
Earth
Cowes would be the perfect Venue. There is always reasonable strong wind in the Summer because of Weather Systems hopping over the UK.
We'll add Solent winds to the list of subjects you pontificate on from a position of ignorance then.

And I speak as someone who would love to see them on the solent

 

enigmatically2

Super Anarchist
3,076
1,597
Earth
That may be true in the USA. It isn't the case in the UK; the average adult sailor is in dinghies. I suspect the same is true in most places.
This @Sisu3360. And also the 12ms bore no relationship to most keelboats. Certainly nothing since the 80s, less still modern LDBs.

plus if that relationship were important F1 would be in Ford Escorts. There are plenty of regattas in keelboats at all levels, just as there are touring car championships, the AC should be different

 

dogwatch

Super Anarchist
16,485
1,367
South Coast, UK
Cowes would be the perfect Venue. There is always reasonable strong wind in the Summer because of Weather Systems hopping over the UK.
Always, no. It can be windless in summer for days on end. I've done at least one Cowes Week when we failed to race several days in a row. But mostly there is wind.

 

Fiji Bitter

I love Fiji Bitter
4,470
1,300
In the wild.
Timur said:
Does one drink Fiji Bitter at room temp?
Only if you like English piss...

Obviously, I'm a proper Fiji Bitter shill !

And I even look a bit bitter and cold too.

images (2).jpeg

Cheers.

 
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