BP28: Revisiting a 50-yo design brief

[TwoLegged]

Here's an interesting project: https://sailingmagazine.net/article-2353-bp-28.html

Bob Perry and Will Porter are revisiting the 1973 design brief of Bob's very successful Islander 28.

The early drawings and measurements look a wee bit conservative for my eye.  I'd like to see more boldness: add lightness, twin rudders, and a lifting keel, and maybe chines and a Manuard-style semi-scow bow  ...  but then maybe I'm just asking for a revival of the brilliant Andrews 28, which may not be the type of boat they plan.

28ft is a lovely size for a performance cruising boat, but the constraints make it hard to do it successfully.  It's early days yet, but this collaboration has a lot of potential for creating something as special as the 1973 boat.

 

[hdra]

Sounds like you're asking for a very different boat - the islander 28 was a great weekend cruiser, not a race boat...

 

[Sail4beer]

I like the looks of it. Nothing so controversial or expensive looking as to scare away customers at the boat show. 

 

[sailman]

It has a similar feel to a J32

 

[TwoLegged]

I like the looks of it. Nothing so controversial or expensive looking as to scare away customers at the boat show. 

You may be right, Beer.  You know the North American boat trade much much better than i do.

But i think it's sad that what remains of the American new sailboat-buying market is so conservative.

The Islander 28 started production in 1973, which is 48 years ago.  Look back to 48 before that, and you're in 1925, twenty years before the Folkboat.

The I28 is a like a spaceship compared to a 1925 design.  French boat-buyers have moved on a similarly long way since 1973 -- look at the output of the likes of IDB, Maree Haute, Pogo Structures etc and even BendyToy's Seascape-derived Firsts.

It would be great to think that American buyers could be as bold.    And Bob could be the man to do that, because he has changed the game before.  His Valiant 40 was a radical breakthrough fast cruiser; in the 1990s he drew a bunch of breakthrough cruising sleds; Francis Lee rewrote the rulebook on skinny boats; and the carbon cutters have moved the goalposts on retro-look long keel cruisers.  I'd love to see @Bob Perry and @willp14335 tearing up the rulebook again in this accessible size of boat.

 

[Jackett]

Sounds like you're asking for a very different boat - the islander 28 was a great weekend cruiser, not a race boat...

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

 

[slap]

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

They look like more than a few inches, but far less than the 15 inches Bob has stated he prefers.    There are two choices for the fix - raise the coamings or lower the cockpit.    Raising the coamings that much would make the boat look awkward, and lowering the cockpit might not be possible due to the engine location - unless you added enough freeboard but then you are not really  lowering the cockpit but raising the deck.

After Bob posted the 15 inch rule for coamings a few years ago I took a tape measure out to my boat - exactly 15 inches.  Whew!

 

[TwoLegged]

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

Yet again, the cockpit is a place where there is much to learn from the Pogo 30.   It has high canvas backrests which give cushioned support almost up to the shoulders, and are v comfortable.  But for a bunch of people actively sailing the boat, they can be removed in seconds to give a racing-style open deck.

Similar with the mainsheet.  The BP28's mainsheet lands 1973-style on a bridgedeck traveller, where it is out-of-reach of the helm but perfectly-placed to discomfort the bum of anyone sitting with the back against the coachroof and their feet stretched aft, and also ideally-placed to impede access to the companionway.  By contrast the Pogo has a much more efficient and less obtrusive almost-full-with traveller right at the stern, where it's in nobody's way, and where the traveller controls can be led neatly to the helm's hand.  The traveller is so long that you don't much need the sheet, but there are choices in how to rig the sheet; cruising-mode via the gooseneck to a coachroof winch for a clutter-free cockpit, or active-sail mode from mid-boom down to a cockpit sole jammer like a dinghy.  I talked to the owner of a Pogo 30 being used for demos, who explained that it was so easy to re-rig that the company switched the set-up for demos according to the type of customer they had that day.

The cockpit in these early drawings of the BP28 looks like something from a generation earlier than the Pogo's setup.

 

[Crash]

Here's an interesting project: https://sailingmagazine.net/article-2353-bp-28.html

Bob Perry and Will Porter are revisiting the 1973 design brief of Bob's very successful Islander 28.

The early drawings and measurements look a wee bit conservative for my eye.  I'd like to see more boldness: add lightness, twin rudders, and a lifting keel, and maybe chines and a Manuard-style semi-scow bow  ...  but then maybe I'm just asking for a revival of the brilliant Andrews 28, which may not be the type of boat they plan.

28ft is a lovely size for a performance cruising boat, but the constraints make it hard to do it successfully.  It's early days yet, but this collaboration has a lot of potential for creating something as special as the 1973 boat.

Geez, to me it looks like a brilliant family racer cruiser.  As much as "adding" boldness seems attractive, I think it limits the audience of who might buy such a boat.  Rather than comparing it to the Andrews 28 (which I really liked when I looked at it), but was doomed by its high build cost at the time, I think a better comparison boat is the equally brilliant S2 9.1, which does everything you could ask of a racer/cruiser pretty darn good.

The BP 28 has a longer waterline, more sail area, weighs less, carries more fuel and water, and looks to have a equally useful cruising comfy interior.  What's not to like?   Having owned a S2 9.1 for 5 years, this is exactly the type of new boat that is missing in today's market.  Sign me up!

 

[TwoLegged]

The BP 28 has a longer waterline, more sail area, weighs less, carries more fuel and water, and looks to have a equally useful cruising comfy interior.  What's not to like?   Having owned a S2 9.1 for 5 years, this is exactly the type of new boat that is missing in today's market.  Sign me up!

in a nutshell, Crash, what's not to like is that these drawings look to me like a good 1995 update on those older designs ... but 1995 was a quarter of a century ago, and design has moved on a long way, mostly driven by the shorthanded racing scene in the Vendee region.

This isn't boldness for its own sake.  Those 21st-century innovations that I describe above make a boat that's much more usable, and I reckon that they would significantly widen the audience by creating a boat with a bunch of desirable features that you can't get on the secondhand market.  Why pay new prices for a 1990s tribute band?

 

[Bob Perry]

You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants. I most certainly made zero attempt to follow fashion.

 

[TwoLegged]

You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants.

Ah.  If it's a custom boat for a single client, then of course the client gets what the client wants, or there's no deal.  I was under the impression that this design sought a wider audience, but maybe I misread (or misinterpreted) the article.

Still, I fear that the client may regret putting a single rudder on such a broad transom.  

I most certainly made zero attempt to follow fashion.

The features I was looking for come out of the function-driven shorthanded racing scene, not fashion.

 

[Crash]

in a nutshell, Crash, what's not to like is that these drawings look to me like a good 1995 update on those older designs ... but 1995 was a quarter of a century ago, and design has moved on a long way, mostly driven by the shorthanded racing scene in the Vendee region.

This isn't boldness for its own sake.  Those 21st-century innovations that I describe above make a boat that's much more usable, and I reckon that they would significantly widen the audience by creating a boat with a bunch of desirable features that you can't get on the secondhand market.  Why pay new prices for a 1990s tribute band?

I totally (yet respectfully) disagree.  I specifically don't think they make the boat any more useable.  I think all boats are a collection of compromises.  How do twin rudders make a boat more useable?  Only if you've made the stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate.  But wide butt boats are not a win-win.  They are great when powering off on a reach, and add volume for more berthing aft, but at the cost of upwind feel and performance and added surface area and drag in light air...

And, at least for me, the "boldness" you describe leaves a boat horribly aesthetically challenged...I want a good looking boat.  Scow bow and big butt isn't (again in my opinion) good looking...

 

[TwoLegged]

I totally (yet respectfully) disagree.  I specifically don't think they make the boat any more useable.  I think all boats are a collection of compromises.  How do twin rudders make a boat more useable?  Only if you've made the stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate.

The drawings seem to me show a hull with a stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate when heeled much.   That's why I would want twin rudders on that hull.   As a secondary consideration, they would a) make for easier access over that open transom, and b) be easier to mount securely.

YMMV.

 

[Bob Perry]

I'm not going to debate anyone who's mind is already made up and static. Waste of my time. Where did I say this is a "custom design"? You need to read more carefully.

I have drawn another version with inboard rudder. I could just as easily draw a version with twin rudders. At this stage we don't have a hull plug yet so anything is possible and maybe all those rudder styles can be offered. We'll see. Maybe we'll do a carbon fiber version. It has been discussed. At this stage, this is the boat the client wants to market.

The I-28 was drawn during the early IOR days but it was not designed as an IOR boat. It is IOR-ish. It was designed to be a fun and comfy small family cruiser that you could PHRF race if so inclined. A Seattle I-28 did very well on the race course. I think it was called SYMPHONY. I raced a Point Hudson (Point Wilson?) race on it and we won our class in moderate air. Owner's wife cooked a fabulous dinner on the beat home. About 2 years later the Ranger 28, Mull design, came out. It was designed to be an IOR race boat. Lots of tumblehome. The I-28 was the faster boat in a breeze but slower than the Ranger in light air. They sold 600 I-28's. Don't know how many R-28's they sold. Google says 130.

 

[Panoramix]

Yet again, the cockpit is a place where there is much to learn from the Pogo 30. 

Wrong place, you forgot the basic assumption here, it is "Euro boat" so it is crap with nothing to learn from!

 

[Crash]

Wrong place, you forgot the basic assumption here, it is "Euro boat" so it is crap with nothing to learn from!

Nice to see Europe still has its inferiority complex in place (purple font used here!).  Its not that there is nothing to learn from.  There is much to be learned.  But that doesn't mean that what works in Europe, works here as well.  And as a sailboat is a leisure craft, and I am recreating on it, why can't I do that the way I want to, on a boat built the way I want it?  There is nothing wrong with Euro boats being different from American boats.  It might simply mean we have decided on a different set of compromises.  AFAIKT, there is no one "perfect" boat, or "perfect" design that works best for everyone.  It's ok to be different.  It ok to like a particular design style, and not like another.

 

[Raz'r]

Nice to see Europe still has its inferiority complex in place (purple font used here!).  Its not that there is nothing to learn from.  There is much to be learned.  But that doesn't mean that what works in Europe, works here as well.  And as a sailboat is a leisure craft, and I am recreating on it, why can't I do that the way I want to, on a boat built the way I want it?  There is nothing wrong with Euro boats being different from American boats.  It might simply mean we have decided on a different set of compromises.  AFAIKT, there is no one "perfect" boat, or "perfect" design that works best for everyone.  It's ok to be different.  It ok to like a particular design style, and not like another.

I do like the canvas seatbacks. Looks like a "seatback stanchion" is required. I think that could be done easily on my boat...

 

[Crash]

The drawings seem to me show a hull with a stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate when heeled much.   That's why I would want twin rudders on that hull.   As a secondary consideration, they would a) make for easier access over that open transom, and b) be easier to mount securely.

YMMV.

Leggs, 

Go look at the Sta 16 drawing in the Sailing Magazine article.  There is a lot of careful and nuanced shape there.  Yes, from the top view the stern looks wide.  From the water's view, I suspect not nearly so wide.