Brexit WTF, WTF

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,926
235
Hamble / Paris
And that differs from how the parliament works in UK by... how? I would think there are hundreds of people one can't vote for and none that you can vote against.
Laws in UK are made by people we vote for. The House of Lords cannot make any laws. It can propose amendments to laws passed to it by House of Commons but ultimately the HoC has to pass the law and it has no obligation to accept any amendments. The HoL can block new laws but NOT if they are  part of manifesto commitments

 

Upp3

Anarchist
720
261
Laws in UK are made by people we vote for. The House of Lords cannot make any laws. It can propose amendments to laws passed to it by House of Commons but ultimately the HoC has to pass the law and it has no obligation to accept any amendments. The HoL can block new laws but NOT if they are  part of manifesto commitments
That I knew. But I thought that in UK you only can vote for MP in area you live in. And cannot vote against anyone, only for someone. Thus there are hundreds of MPs making laws and you had no say in their election.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
Not asking for a lower value of R at all, in the grand scheme of things you have to be up around 10 or even higher to get to Net Zero which is beginning to finally become aware to the likes of the NHBC which is one of the bigger companies dealing with new builds in the UK.

https://www.zerocarbonhub.org/sites/default/files/resources/reports/Understanding_Overheating-Where_to_Start_NF44.pdf

Bare in mind that just a few weeks back I alone was working on a very high tech very highly insulated house in 5 degrees out side temperatures and in the two hours I was there, the internal temperature raised 2 degrees with just my body heat ( even I was impressed ). Admittedly the air exchange fans were shut down, but never the less these are very very highly sealed houses to the point that in the UK we now need to pressure test them for them to pass even the present codes.

The big thing is windows and if you have too many of them ( as we all do ) then with the new proposed codes of construction in the UK then you will have to cool the house in the summer. Thats already been proven by the early Net Zero houses in Milton Keynes which are having terrible problems from over heating and more worryingly the amount of mildew and mold appearing from not having enough air exchanges per hour ( costs energy to do so, so everyone shuts the climate controls down to save electricity doh ).

Sorry Panaramix but you need to catch up on this as it will catch an awful lot of designers and builders out in the long term. 
Yes, you need ventilation and shading in a passive building... people into this kind of design have known this for more than 2 decades! NHBC needs to send people to the EU to learn a thing or two. I probably still have an old example of NHBC guidance somewhere in my loft, back in my time (12 years ago) they were more concerned by tree roots and structural calcs.

Here it is actually harder to design a passive building for the summer than the winter. If you do it zrong; it zill be horrible during the summer. No excuse for the mildew with heat exchange ventilations and R values that are prescribed for these buildings, you need to be really inept to get to this point.

Here is one I did :

project_photo_gallery


You need that much shading and ventilation... but then it is worth it as you divide energy consumption by 10!!!

Notice how little sun comes in :

project_photo_gallery


Simple when you know what you are doing!

 
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Simple when you know what you are doing!
Very true, but when 95% of all your building plots are not oriented in just the right way, local building design dictates certain style, costs dictating how many frills you fit to a building before its uneconomic to build and the number of new builds where you can bring in good design proportionally tiny to the number of existing houses, then really only very high end typically totally uneconomic and more like 21st century “ folly’s” can fit into the Green politicians dreams of Net Zero.

Sorry to also report but your very nice wooden sunshades would make that building probably uninsurable in the U.K. with the backlash from Grenfill. Any thing flammable on the outside of a building over 3 stories is now finished in the U.K.

 
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Panoramix

Super Anarchist
Very true, but when 95% of all your building plots are not oriented in just the right way, local building design dictates certain style, costs dictating how many frills you fit to a building before its uneconomic to build and the number of new builds where you can bring in good design proportionally tiny to the number of existing houses, then really only very high end typically totally uneconomic and more like 21st century “ folly’s” can fit into the Green politicians dreams of Net Zero.

Sorry to also report but your very nice wooden sunshades would make that building probably uninsurable in the U.K. with the backlash from Grenfill. Any thing flammable on the outside of a building over 3 stories is now finished in the U.K.
Still in contact with a British architect and she told me about the cladding hysteria, you could make them in metal, that would still work and keep the insurers happy. You can retrofit insulation and ventilation to an old victorian house, my wife was involved 15 years ago in a project where they renovated a Bristol terrace house to passive standards. It was a research project (If I remember well it was financed by the DTI), but much of what they had done could be put in place if people wanted to. They insulated everything and used the chimney for passive ventilation if I remember well.

Look that's one I did in Paris :

ITE-paille-bretelles-duo-E%CC%81douard-Verme%CC%80s-copie-1280x839.jpg


Straw insulation on a 100 years old building. It works and it is within French (and EU) fire regulations...

As for Grenfell, if the Tories hadn't decided to limit building regs controls by the local authority with David Cameron "bonfire of red tape", may be it wouldn't have happened. The cladding they used wasn't legal as it wasn't approved for high rise. Even if I sometimes do funky stuff, I wouldn't have slept well if I had specified a flammable insulation system designed for 3 storeys on a high rise building.

 
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It was a research project (If I remember well it was financed by the DTI), but much of what they had done could be put in place if people wanted to. They insulated everything and used the chimney for passive ventilation if I remember well.
Yes it can be done, my own house is fitted with underfloor heating ( low level water temps ), high levels of wall insulation, high levels of roof insulation using "Thatch" as part of the insulation value and relatively small windows, all built to my own design 30 years ago. It would be still current to the 2020 building regs in the UK. I have been a campaigner for major change of how and where we build houses in the UK for even longer, so please no lectures on what and how you can do with passive buildings, been there and done it for a lot of years.

But all that insulation costs big time, all that manufacturing from largely oil based products of the foam, all that aluminium has to be produced somehow, usually at a large cost to the planet. None of that cost is taken into account when your local building codes is only evaluated on energy retention and minimisation only to the end user.

Oh if only we had taken up my advice back in the late 80's of using water rather than air for energy production, Hydrogen produced by the unused electricity in the quieter energy requirement periods rather than batteries and local small scale Nukes to produce electricity for the peak periods, how much better off we would be today where we would be able to not insulate our houses so highly and have cheap electricity, all for substantially less damage to the planet than the present path. 

 
As for Grenfell, if the Tories hadn't decided to limit building regs controls by the local authority with David Cameron "bonfire of red tape", may be it wouldn't have happened. The cladding they used wasn't legal as it wasn't approved for high rise.
Thats bollocks, it had nothing to do with what you are saying. It was a set of circumstantial errors by multiple companies that compounded up to where highly inflameable foam was attached to a high rise building in a manner it was never designed to be. It had nothing to do with the Tories.

The backlash and cost to this simple compounding error is going to be enormous to the whole country and will not in my view make the buildings much safer and in particular will create ugly architecture which nobody will want to live in.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
But all that insulation costs big time, all that manufacturing from largely oil based products of the foam, all that aluminium has to be produced somehow, usually at a large cost to the planet. None of that cost is taken into account when your local building codes is only evaluated on energy retention and minimisation only to the end user.
That's why I specialise in wood, rammed earth and straw!

 
That's why I specialise in wood, rammed earth and straw!
Sadly as much as I think they are good products, in the grand scheme of building 100's of 1000's of building each year, they are just niche products that never can be used "en masse" and largely specified by over paid architects that have clients with unlimited budgets. They are never going to catch on I'm afraid.

Now if you want to talk about Earth Sheltered buildings then I could be a big fan, but then we would all become Hobbits and thats not going to catch on any time soon.

Hey a question, the EU colder countries have used the identical Kingspan insulation ( a French company manufactures it ) much more widely and for longer than we have in the UK, in their buildings. Has there been any repercussions for the 1 fire in probably 100,000 such affected buildings, that have led to the huge and costly backlash in the UK ? 

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
Thats bollocks, it had nothing to do with what you are saying. It was a set of circumstantial errors by multiple companies that compounded up to where highly inflameable foam was attached to a high rise building in a manner it was never designed to be. It had nothing to do with the Tories.

The backlash and cost to this simple compounding error is going to be enormous to the whole country and will not in my view make the buildings much safer and in particular will create ugly architecture which nobody will want to live in.
I worked in the UK from 2002 to 2012 and building regs submissions definitely became easier after 2010.

 
I worked in the UK from 2002 to 2012 and building regs submissions definitely became easier after 2010.
For good reason, prior to 2010 it had become more and more a problem to submit the regs and get them looked at, not because of the regs themselves, but because local government had become more and more bogged down with politics, unions and numpties being employed that weren't really suitable for their jobs.

Something had to change otherwise house building would have ground to a halt.

The really ironic thing is that post Covid we are now in an even worse place, the numpties want to work from home and don't want to come in to the office, the lead time on one of my current projects is 18 months to get a reply from one government department, it used to be 2 - 3 months.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
Sadly as much as I think they are good products, in the grand scheme of building 100's of 1000's of building each year, they are just niche products that never can be used "en masse" and largely specified by over paid architects that have clients with unlimited budgets. They are never going to catch on I'm afraid.
Why not ? It works...

As for overpaid architects, that's a bit of an oxymoron, if you want to be overpaid my advice would be to go for the square mile! As an engineer, my situation is not as bad but I would definitely be wealthier had I decided to go in a different field such as finance or industry.

Hey a question, the EU colder countries have used the identical Kingspan insulation ( a French company manufactures it ) much more widely and for longer than we have in the UK, in their buildings. Has there been any repercussions for the 1 fire in probably 100,000 such affected buildings, that have led to the huge and costly backlash in the UK ? 
We don't use Kingspan that much as far as I know, last time I specified petrol based insulation was in the UK as far as I can remember.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
For good reason, prior to 2010 it had become more and more a problem to submit the regs and get them looked at, not because of the regs themselves, but because local government had become more and more bogged down with politics, unions and numpties being employed that weren't really suitable for their jobs.
Not sure that Glenfell would have happened. Solution IMHO was more to fix the system...

The really ironic thing is that post Covid we are now in an even worse place, the numpties want to work from home and don't want to come in to the office, the lead time on one of my current projects is 18 months to get a reply from one government department, it used to be 2 - 3 months.
Thus... they tried to fix the issue by nuking services that were meant to protect people, but at the end the radical surgery didn't fix anything!

Well done...

 
Thus... they tried to fix the issue by nuking services that were meant to protect people, but at the end the radical surgery didn't fix anything!

Well done...
We have some of the highest numbers ever of civil servants and yet productivity seems almost at its worst, what's that got to the with the Tories or even for that matter Brexit, the subject of this thread  :D

Why not ? It works...
Yes it does, but land values are so high here that to have 0.75 - 1 metre thick walls needed for straw insulation ( take into account all the various " skins " to protect the straw + aesthetic material such as brick to confirm to local vernaculars ) that it would be uneconomic on anything other than individual large properties on large ground areas, which the UK is not renown for.

Wool batts are now commonly used here and has some merit, but the likes of Kingspan and Aluminium foil based blankets, take a lot of beating for max insulation with least thickness with max profit for the building companies, which is 99% of house building.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
es it does, but land values are so high here that to have 0.75 - 1 metre thick walls needed for straw insulation ( take into account all the various " skins " to protect the straw + aesthetic material such as brick to confirm to local vernaculars ) that it would be uneconomic on anything other than individual large properties on large ground areas, which the UK is not renown for.
If you want to keep it thin, you can do 40mm plaster + 370mm straw + 40mm render that's 450mm, not too bad considering that you get a R of about 7.

Yes, UK developers seem obsessed with wall thickness, they are just interested in sucking as much money as possible out of people and not interested in building decent houses. 

I used to design timber frames and the first question was always "Can we have 89mm walls ? " ... even on low to medium rise flats. Sure we could engineer it in some cases but it was non sense as the walls were full of studs that were acting as thermal bridges. Obviously they were specifying a 100mm brick leaf to give people the impression that they were investing in "bricks and mortar".... the brick was just a cladding so the structure was thinner than the cladding :rolleyes: idiots :D These walls once you add plasterboard and cavity were 12.5+89+9+50+100 = 260.5mm if I remember well... For less than 200mm extra, you get external walls that make energy prices irrelevant and heating absolutely minimal... Dunno, I am not convinced that they have their priorities right... If they can't stomach 450mm wall, at least they could have 200mm insulation / structure and keep the rest within 60mm...

 
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Yes, UK developers seem obsessed with wall thickness, they are just interested in sucking as much money as possible out of people and not interested in building decent houses. 
You are correct in some ways with the major builders in the UK pretty notorius for poor housing, but you only hear of the 1% of expectations of a 1M house for £250K and not the other 99.9% of new builds, which conform nicely to some pretty tight building regulations. The biggest problem as with all highly densely populated areas, is house numbers per hectare.

PS the cavity now is typically 100mm of batts or more so recently of 150mm, over 300mm thick is pretty normal. And don't knock timber stud construction its pretty effective, fast to build ( ask the Americans ) relatively green and yes you will need a brick facade in the UK to meet local build vernaculars and buyers willing to part with their money.

 

Panoramix

Super Anarchist
PS the cavity now is typically 100mm of batts or more so recently of 150mm, over 300mm thick is pretty normal. And don't knock timber stud construction its pretty effective, fast to build ( ask the Americans ) relatively green and yes you will need a brick facade in the UK to meet local build vernaculars and buyers willing to part with their money.
Last time I designed a UK style timber frame was in 2006,may be the cavity was already 100mm, it is a bit fuzzy in my head.

Timber frame is good if you do it right... you just need lot of insulation!

 

hump101

Anarchist
Be careful before you libel a company. Kingspan was not the supplier of the insulation at Grenfell that caused the problem in the fire. The majority of the insulation was Celotex RS5000 boards made from polyisocyanurate, which is flammable and also emits toxic gasses when it burns. The building also had small quantities of phenolic Kingspan panels, which produces water when heated and thus does not burn in the same dangerous manner. This is why Kingspan have been tainted, because their undamaged panels were still intact with the Kingspan name clearly visible after the fire was extinguished.

If the phenolic panels had been used throughout, then the outcome would have been very different. We use phenolic panels as sound and heat insulation in ships and rigs, for this reason.

 
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