Brexit WTF, WTF

Expectations....?
Your expectations of Wayne's ability to understand your points and respond to them in a coherent and rational way should be low.
Various reasons why this might be the case of this have been proposed during these threads- poor education, use of a non-native language, stupidity. We remain in the dark. Often it's not even clear whether he understood the point and chose not to respond appropriately, or simply didn't get it. It sometimes seems he doesn't understand his own post, as it demonstrates an argument that is at odds with the point he's apparently trying to make.
 
Regarding Wayne import Export Statista.

First read the headline;
It is about the EU goods circulating in and out of the UK economy.
Simple explainer; it is the French products in a UK car sold back to EU kind of statistics.

Took me 3 seconds to spot the difference between; in and to.
Another 2 seconds that this statistic shows UK are using more EU products with regards to their internal market. The opposite of Brexit, hilarious.
But the questions is it inflation corrected or not.
LeoV you are one of the largest purveyors of using stats to suit your narrative here on SA, this is a simple statistic that you have immediately written off as being a " it is the French products in a UK car sold back to EU kind of statistic". Your response smells of hypocrisy to me or simply that you will denigrate anything that doesn't suit your somewhat narrow blinkered views.
 
Your expectations of Wayne's ability to understand your points and respond to them in a coherent and rational way should be low.
Various reasons why this might be the case of this have been proposed during these threads- poor education, use of a non-native language, stupidity. We remain in the dark. Often it's not even clear whether he understood the point and chose not to respond appropriately, or simply didn't get it. It sometimes seems he doesn't understand his own post, as it demonstrates an argument that is at odds with the point he's apparently trying to make.
Jack, even on your terms ( after all your were banned from SA for being a cunt most of the time ) thats a bit harsh for someone who regularly is proved to be correct.

Anyway we can disregard your missives as being nothing more than a sock puppet agenda.
 
When you look at opportunity for trade, for business, and for the individual, there is no doubt whatsoever that leaving was the worse option. And that's what I have meant by owning it. You got what you want, but you absolutely refuse to accept that for huge numbers of people it comes with a real cost.
Flaming, your missives do come across as a businessman who expects to make money regardless of whats going on around him. Blaming your travails on Brexit is pushing the boat out a bit to say the least.

Ever considered that life is a bitch sometimes and perfectly run business's can fail if the management do not adapt with the times.
 
Jack, even on your terms ( after all your were banned from SA for being a cunt most of the time ) thats a bit harsh for someone who regularly is proved to be correct.

Anyway we can disregard your missives as being nothing more than a sock puppet agenda.

I am not Jack Sparrow. I have made this clear on many occasions, as well as pointing out that you claiming it's the case makes you look stupid.

Given which, it's hardly "harsh" to comment that stupidity has been raised as a possible explanation for your posting style.
 
AnIdiot ( why on earth would any sane poster call themselves AnIdiot ) why would you call anyone stupid when they get things right over and over again.

As to writing styles, it really doesn’t need one to be a graphologist to see the similarities of writing styles between yourself and the banned Jack Sparrow. That little giveaway of style which only you and Jack had, points to you being one and the same, let alone watching that flicker of anger rise when you are pushed.

Lets get back to watching yourself hating everything about Brexit ( now that’s entertaining for me as it’s now a lost cause, even Starmer would agree with me ) and myself defending a democracy being able to have a referendum and then moving upon that result ( and I think that is worth while defending ).
 

Flaming

Anarchist
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223
UK
Flaming, your missives do come across as a businessman who expects to make money regardless of whats going on around him. Blaming your travails on Brexit is pushing the boat out a bit to say the least.

Ever considered that life is a bitch sometimes and perfectly run business's can fail if the management do not adapt with the times.
Again, if that's what you're getting from my posts, then either I'm not expressing myself very well, or you're struggling with comprehension.

To set the record straight.

I have detailed (some of) the direct costs of Brexit that I have experienced in the course of running my business.
They are not trivial, but they don't directly threaten the future of the company. They just make us a little bit less competitive, and a little bit less profitable, so we will grow slower than if we weren't paying them, and we pay less tax on profits because we are making less profit as a direct result of paying these costs. The direct amount of money I had to pay last year for agent fees, that we did not have to pay pre Brexit, was in the 10s of Thousands. And that's simply reduced cash to invest. And we're really quite a small company...
Multiply those extra costs, that lost growth, that lost tax revenue over the number of companies that trade with the EU and it adds up to a big number.

There are of course a lot of other increased costs and complications in the business world right now. Energy is absolutely ridiculous for example. But the point is that the costs that we experience due to energy have a multitude of causes, and it's not down to government policy alone, or even mainly due to government policy. That's a business risk, "shit happens" type of thing. And something we can mitigate and plan for. Construction on our solar farm started last week, and when finished should reduce our overall energy cost back to 2019 levels. So please do sod off with your "not adapting to changes stich". Because that's EXACTLY what well run businesses do, always have done, and always will do.

By contrast the brexit related additional costs in trading that we are experiencing are 100% down to government policy. They were also costs that were 100% foreseeable, and despite this the proponents of this course of action told us repeatedly before, and after, taking this course of action that this was going to be beneficial.
And then you and others like you act like we're being spoiled brats for daring to point out these costs and ask "so where's the upside that makes paying these costs worthwhile?" You said this course of action was going to be beneficial. Here are documented, undeniable, actual costs associated with your plan. Where are the upsides?

You can't "adapt" to something that you just have to pay. Except of course by moving production out of the UK. Didn't see that on the side of a bus, did we....
 

Flaming

Anarchist
615
223
UK
Lets get back to watching yourself hating everything about Brexit ( now that’s entertaining for me as it’s now a lost cause, even Starmer would agree with me ) and myself defending a democracy being able to have a referendum and then moving upon that result ( and I think that is worth while defending ).
And lets get back to us wanting to hold the proponents of Brexit to account for the reality that has transpired, compared to what was promised.

Democracy doesn't end the day that the result is announced. Whether that is a referendum, a general election or the vote for the golf club treasurer. Real democracy requires that those in power are held to account. It is telling how brexit enthusiasts dodge scrutiny of the progress of Brexit at all opportunities.
 
AnIdiot ( why on earth would any sane poster call themselves AnIdiot )

Think I've answered this before. The account was created as an ironic response to a poster in one of the Laser threads that titled themself as "NotAnIdiot" and posted idiotic things. When I changed jobs a while back it seemed inappropriate to continue to use my real name on here, so I switched to using this account in preference.
why would you call anyone stupid when they get things right over and over again.
I don't see you getting things right much, certainly not in comparison to the amount of rubbish you post.
As to writing styles, it really doesn’t need one to be a graphologist to see the similarities of writing styles between yourself and the banned Jack Sparrow. That little giveaway of style which only you and Jack had, points to you being one and the same, let alone watching that flicker of anger rise when you are pushed.
Only in your head, Wayne. No-one else is confused about this. You jumped to the wrong conclusion and now refuse to recognise it. This is not clever.
Lets get back to watching yourself hating everything about Brexit ( now that’s entertaining for me as it’s now a lost cause, even Starmer would agree with me ) and myself defending a democracy being able to have a referendum and then moving upon that result ( and I think that is worth while defending ).

You trolling, Wayne? :cool:
 
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Democracy doesn't end the day that the result is announced.
Totally agree and thats the beauty of democracy for all its faults. I would suggest whining here on SA is not going to get you very far in your ambitions to rejoin the EU. Can I suggest you join the political party supporting rejoining the EU and campaign on their behalf. Incidentally is there a political party still advocating rejoining the EU ? I can only think of the Lib Dems and look where they are in the Polls.

Construction on our solar farm started last week, and when finished should reduce our overall energy cost back to 2019 levels.
So you are joining the Solar Panel brigade, have you ever considered how much damage you are doing to the environment if you consider the true cost to the planet of manufacture to disposal at the end of their working lives of PV panels in the UK. Here in the UK sadly the economical benefit doesn't stack up very well along with our push for onshore wind turbines, when we watch every river flow 365 days a year and tides ebb and flow regardless of the weather.


Still I guess that you have put your management skill to work and ticked that Green box thingee
 

Flaming

Anarchist
615
223
UK
Totally agree and thats the beauty of democracy for all its faults. I would suggest whining here on SA is not going to get you very far in your ambitions to rejoin the EU. Can I suggest you join the political party supporting rejoining the EU and campaign on their behalf. Incidentally is there a political party still advocating rejoining the EU ? I can only think of the Lib Dems and look where they are in the Polls.


So you are joining the Solar Panel brigade, have you ever considered how much damage you are doing to the environment if you consider the true cost to the planet of manufacture to disposal at the end of their working lives of PV panels in the UK. Here in the UK sadly the economical benefit doesn't stack up very well along with our push for onshore wind turbines, when we watch every river flow 365 days a year and tides ebb and flow regardless of the weather.


Still I guess that you have put your management skill to work and ticked that Green box thingee

The lesson that Brexit taught us is that you don't get what you want in the UK by forming a party and getting MPs elected. Even Farage couldn't do that. What you actually do is infiltrate one of the 2 main parties and get their policy changed. Which is what the ERG did.

And please, this is just a bit of fun. If anyone is dumb enough to think people who actually care about this limit themselves to posting on a US owned sailing forum.....

Your rant about solar panels is just a, massively out of touch, and b entirely misses the point. The green credentials of Solar are a nice bonus, but the main point is the hundreds of thousands of pounds saved in Energy costs and increased energy security. An ROI of 12 months on current energy costs makes it an absolute no brainer. Remember this isn't about selling the power to others, but cutting my insane electricity bill by generating my own power.

But then this thread is a massive pile of evidence that you don't do facts....
 
Remember this isn't about selling the power to others, but cutting my insane electricity bill by generating my own power.
The only thing you are doing in green terms is transferring your inefficient factories pollution to a poorer usually Far Eastern country, who doesn't give ferk on how they pollute the earths atmosphere. And all because you are so self centred that you don't actually care unless it saves you money and have no clue to actually what you are creating other than electricity at your door.

Along the way all those paying subsidies in their electricity bills to bring on green electricity supplies and all those who pay to insulate their home, usually poorly, are paying a premium to have shut down wind turbines and PV panels during the summer months, when we least need PV and wind turbines.

But then this thread is a massive pile of evidence that you don't do facts....
Really, if you follow the thread back I seem to know quite alot about electrical matters and also quite a lot about electronics, I guess my Uni degree in these fields has had a fair bit of use over the years. Just for a bit of fun can you convince us that PV panels are financially worth while over their 10 year expected life span. Do though add in the fact that you will pay higher cost for any imported electricity that you use ( that will be in the region of 5 months of the year in the UK at least unless you have huge battery storage for any excess ) as soon as you go onto a PV tariff from any electricity supplier and you will be expected to pay for the removal and disposal of the panels when they no longer are working at their best. Convince us.
 

Flaming

Anarchist
615
223
UK
The only thing you are doing in green terms is transferring your inefficient factories pollution to a poorer usually Far Eastern country, who doesn't give ferk on how they pollute the earths atmosphere. And all because you are so self centred that you don't actually care unless it saves you money and have no clue to actually what you are creating other than electricity at your door.

Along the way all those paying subsidies in their electricity bills to bring on green electricity supplies and all those who pay to insulate their home, usually poorly, are paying a premium to have shut down wind turbines and PV panels during the summer months, when we least need PV and wind turbines.


Really, if you follow the thread back I seem to know quite alot about electrical matters and also quite a lot about electronics, I guess my Uni degree in these fields has had a fair bit of use over the years. Just for a bit of fun can you convince us that PV panels are financially worth while over their 10 year expected life span. Do though add in the fact that you will pay higher cost for any imported electricity that you use ( that will be in the region of 5 months of the year in the UK at least unless you have huge battery storage for any excess ) as soon as you go onto a PV tariff from any electricity supplier and you will be expected to pay for the removal and disposal of the panels when they no longer are working at their best. Convince us.
The panels have a 20 year warranty.
The whole system, panels + battery, will reduce our imported power by 75%.
The battery is leased, cost neutral, as it is allocated to the grid for voltage smoothing, the rates for which are high and expected to increase as we transition away from fossil fuels. Voltage smoothing services have no impact on its use for storage of excess solar.
At current (uk government subsidised) power costs the reduction in spend in 1 year is higher than the installation cost of the whole project.
In fact, paying finance costs on the project for the next 6 years is better in cash terms than paying for the power at today’s rates.
So ROI of about a year. Cash positive the day after installation.
After 10 years, at 2019 power costs, we would expect to be about half a million quid up vs not doing the project. At current rates it’s about 6 million.

And this completely ignores any cash we might get for selling power back to the grid.

But sure, you know everything.

You should stop now, you’re making yourself look very stupid.
 
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IStream

Super Anarchist
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When I first got my PV panels installed about seven years ago, some jackass made a claim here that they would never generate enough power to exceed the power it took to manufacture them. So I did the math and even with the most conservative assumptions, they produce more power in a year (even here in sunny Seattle) than it took to manufacture them. Using more realistic assumptions, it was closer to 7 months. Even if the power used to manufacture them was derived 100% from coal, it was still a massive win for the environment.

Oh, and at the "end of their useful life" after 20 years, they'll still be generating >80% of their rated output because that's the arbitrary cutoff that's used to determine "useful life".

And even if you trash them at that point, they're almost completely recyclable, consisting primarily of aluminum, glass, and highly refined silicon that can be reprocessed.
 
The panels have a 20 year warranty.
The whole system, panels + battery, will reduce our imported power by 75%.
The battery is leased, cost neutral, as it is allocated to the grid for voltage smoothing, the rates for which are high and expected to increase as we transition away from fossil fuels. Voltage smoothing services have no impact on its use for storage of excess solar.
At current (uk government subsidised) power costs the reduction in spend in 1 year is higher than the installation cost of the whole project.
In fact, paying finance costs on the project for the next 6 years is better in cash terms than paying for the power at today’s rates.
So ROI of about a year. Cash positive the day after installation.
After 10 years, at 2019 power costs, we would expect to be about half a million quid up vs not doing the project. At current rates it’s about 6 million.

And this completely ignores any cash we might get for selling power back to the grid.

But sure, you know everything.

You should stop now, you’re making yourself look very stupid.
Really interesting, to be making that sort of size of power your system has to be mega huge, give us some figures to work with, say total number of panels x size, expected output and battery storage size. 20 years warranty thats new, I've seen guarenteed 10 year figures but rarely 20 years. I've seen figures predicted at 20 years ( the older units that have been out in the field at 20 years are way below reasonable figures and may as well be replaced ), they are OK but still work as most outlays have been recovered in the 8 - 10 year spans.
 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,757
142
Hamble / Paris
This is just where we are at completely cross purposes.

You see being out of "the european superstate" as an advantage in its own right, and see that in itself as a big and truly historic success.

But that isn't the actual question you're being asked. The question you're being asked is "why is being out better?" And more particularly, "why is it so advantageous that it outweighs the disadvantages that we see in our actual day to day dealings." That is the question that is NOT being answered.
I've detailed the extra costs that I'm seeing as a direct result of us leaving, and leaving in the way we did. NOBODY can answer the simple question of "Where is the upside for my business?"
Or, maybe it's the case that some firms will see only costs, but others will benefit? Ok, not ideal, but which ones? Can you give an example of what sort of firm will actually benefit. (Other than customs import/export agents...)

Or how about the individual? We know what we've all lost - the right to move freely about 28 countries with no limit on how long we could stay (providing we can support ourselves), work in any of them etc etc..
But what have we gained? What can I do now that I couldn't before? What opportunities are opening up for young people today that didn't exist before?

You can decry the "European superstate" as much as you like. And I fully accept that not wanting to be part of it is a legitimate point of view. But when you actually dig into it, the "benefits" to leaving are somewhat ethereal and depend entirely on you having a predisposition to not wanting to share sovereignty with others.
When you look at opportunity for trade, for business, and for the individual, there is no doubt whatsoever that leaving was the worse option. And that's what I have meant by owning it. You got what you want, but you absolutely refuse to accept that for huge numbers of people it comes with a real cost.

And the eurozone debt crisis is an absolute red herring, having no relevance to Brexit. We were not in the eurozone....

Not being part of a European Superstate is a HUGE advantage. We can forge our own path one best suited to our particular circumstances. We retain our democracy.

I don't know your business well enough to say what your opportunities or benefits are. The reduced paperwork you had before came at a heavy price both financial and in terms of legal independence for the country as a whole.

Very few Brits took advantage of freedom of movement. Just 3m and most of them retired. Far more Brits have gone to Australia to live and work than the EU. It's obvious given language barriers, I speak French but not to a professional standard. Europeans naturally speak better English as it's the gateway langauge to internal communication. My daughter was learning English from age 3 at her French State school.

The eurozone debt crises is highly relevant to Brexit and UK. The EU previously tried to coerce UK into contributing to bailouts and that was just the relatively "small" issue of Greece. A failure of the euro would be devastating the whole EU project so there is no doubt non-euro members would be called to financially support the project
 




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