Brexit WTF, WTF

MiddayGun

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As much as I may disagree with Wayne & Jambalaya on many things, I do feel like the SNP as been given a free pass in (some) of the media and other circles for a long time now, simply because they provide a counterpoint to the Tories. And they play into the fuck England narrative.

Everything that goes well they can take credit for, anything that doesn't, blame it on Westminster. Especially their decision to take every vote for them as a vote for Scottish independence (which makes no more sense to me than Brexit did, i.e. very little).
I'd probably vote for them if I lived in Scotland, because I do think they are more likely to represent Scottish interests than the other options, but it would be a mistake to take that vote for support of another indyref.
 
As much as I may disagree with Wayne & Jambalaya on many things, I do feel like the SNP as been given a free pass in (some) of the media and other circles for a long time now, simply because they provide a counterpoint to the Tories. And they play into the fuck England narrative.

Everything that goes well they can take credit for, anything that doesn't, blame it on Westminster. Especially their decision to take every vote for them as a vote for Scottish independence (which makes no more sense to me than Brexit did, i.e. very little).
I'd probably vote for them if I lived in Scotland, because I do think they are more likely to represent Scottish interests than the other options, but it would be a mistake to take that vote for support of another indyref.
Don't disagree... OTOH, it would be daft of them not to take advantage... and while they get a free pass in some of the media they also can't get anything right in others' eyes and are damned whatever they do.
They did very well out of the last GE when they offered an alternative to Johnson & Corbyn. Scottish Labour are in a worse mess than the SNP, the Scottish Tories are only relevant because of their links to power in Westminster (they haven't been an electoral force for decades). The LibDems and Greens are significant minor players at Holyrood but neither seems positioned to win big at either parliament.

Also worth noting that perspectives N & S of the border can be different: many in England seem to think the UK voted to leave Europe and now Scotland is voting to leave the UK; in Scotland many really don't see things that way!

The next GE could be interesting... but, sadly, probably won't be.
 
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Jambalaya

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Absolutely no surprise that eurosceptic Tory MPs find that the Windsor Framework does none of the things Rishi Sunak has claimed. Today they published their 137 page legal analysis together with a Stormont Brake diagram which as they say shows that's it is largely worthless



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LeoV

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In short;
"The Star Chamber's principal findings are: that the fundamentals of the Good Friday Agreement will still be observed. No border on Irish soil, ECJ ruling, no veto etc. We have not yet decided whether to approve of this."
 

Jambalaya

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And there you have it... 7 years after the vote, and 2 years after we actually left those who campaigned for it still can't agree amongst themselves how we should actually do the thing that they told us would be easy.
Leaving would have been easy if those who campaigned and voted for it had been in charge. What we got is diehard remainers like Olly Robbins and Theresa May running the show. All the problems in NI and with Brexit implementation can be traced to her door, squandering a majority with a snap election and signing legally binding agreements which bound the hands of all who followed

EDIT: I would add nobody foresaw a Speaker who would simply make things up as he went along to frustrate Brexit at every turn. Bercrow probably did more than anyone ever has to undermine our democracy

As for not agreeing the DUP and ERG are in complete agreement. This framework is no good.
 

Flaming

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UK
Sorry but that’s nonsense. Utter revionist nonsense.
Least of all because when I said that people who campaigned to leave still can’t agree, I was referring to Sunnak. Who campaigned to leave not agreeing with the ERG etc…
 
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JohnMB

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Leaving would have been easy if those who campaigned and voted for it had been in charge. What we got is diehard remainers like Olly Robbins and Theresa May running the show.
Those who Campaigned for Brexit did so on the assumption that it would be rejected; allowing them to step into positions of power as having done their best to uphold British sovereignty (sorry chaps we did our best but it didn't work out so lets move on). This was transparently BJ's play all along, shame it got screwed up when the vote actually went 'his' way.
He had no interest in taking over from Cameron and dealing with the inevitable shitshow that was to follow, he couldn't run away fast enough.

Farage was even more transparent basically saying that have cot the vote going his way, his job was done.... now you other chappies can clean up the mess.

Most of the rest of the brexiteers were much happier staying on the outside pissing in rather than making any attempt to come up with something practical that would work.
 

Jambalaya

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That’s exactly the point. At no time has any brexiter actually proposed a solution that would actually work.

The EU proposed a solution that would work. The land border would remain completely open and Republic of Ireland goods would be checked at customs on the continent, eg in France and Holland

The "Brexiteers" solution was to have cameras at border crossings and checks on goods away from the border based on intelligence. Theresa May signed a legally binding agreement which prevented this solution (no border cameras). It's worth noting that Automatic Number Plate Recognition ANPR Cameras are all over the UK road network, in car parks and used to manage the London Congestion Charge Zone etc. This technology plus customs declarations would have solved the problem easily. The Republic government were working on this solution before being stopped by the EU

The Irish Border issue has always been about the EU trying to tie UK into regulatory alignment so as to restrict UK gaining significant benefits from divergence post Brexit

With the so called Windsor Framework the EU have achieved a partial win here as Northern Ireland has been left behind trapped in the EU regulatory regime. It also acts as a drag on UK divergence as the more it does the further separated NI becomes.
 

MiddayGun

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The "Brexiteers" solution was to have cameras at border crossings and checks on goods away from the border based on intelligence. Theresa May signed a legally binding agreement which prevented this solution (no border cameras). It's worth noting that Automatic Number Plate Recognition ANPR Cameras are all over the UK road network, in car parks and used to manage the London Congestion Charge Zone etc. This technology plus customs declarations would have solved the problem easily.

It doesn't really help with catching undeclared goods though, or illicit goods, etc, that's the whole point of a border, that you can actually stop stuff going across it. I don't think ANPR really cuts it.
 

dogwatch

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How long exactly would ANPR cameras have lasted on the border before being cut down, blown up or otherwise made inoperable? There are people who take exception to a border being there. Have we forgotten that?
 
Why are we really worried about Ireland becoming united, it’s obvious to anybody of any neutrality that it’s economically the right thing to do, socially it would unite the populace and it would solve all the EU’s delaying tactics.

A united Ireland maybe a negative or positive for all you Remainers, another told you so, but bear in mind this was well on the way to happen long before Brexit.
 

MiddayGun

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Why are we really worried about Ireland becoming united, it’s obvious to anybody of any neutrality that it’s economically the right thing to do, socially it would unite the populace and it would solve all the EU’s delaying tactics.

A united Ireland maybe a negative or positive for all you Remainers, another told you so, but bear in mind this was well on the way to happen long before Brexit.

I think most of us would be happy to see Ireland united.
That is after all the point of the Good Friday agreement.

I suspect that sentiment is not shared by the ERG and many other more right wing politicians.
 

LeoV

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Earlier this week, when it announced that its MPs would be voting against the Windsor framework, the revised version of the Northern Ireland framework negotiated by the UK government and the EU, the DUP said that the deal required “further clarification, re-working and change”.

But it’s too late. They’ve missed the boat. On Tuesday the EU formally accepted the deal, yesterday Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said there would be “no renegotiating of that deal”, and this morning James Cleverly, the foreign secretary, and Maroš Šefčovič, the European Commission vice president, will sign it off. By lunchtime, it will be a done deal.
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Brexit is done, the rest will be backroom fights.
 

MiddayGun

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Yorkshire
I'd like to say lets hope that it is, but I've though that before as well.

Moving onto Boris

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/johnsons-defence-is-that-hes-an-idiot-our-writers-verdicts-zzw3m0zh7's

Surely even our resident Boris lovers, if you can put aside for one moment that you think its a witch hunt and look at it purely on what happened, the idea that he thought nothing was out of order is just fanciful.
I mean if our Prime Minister can't follow his own rules without having to consult a civil servant first, then how did the rest of us who don't have government aides whispering advice cope?

I mean if he just came out & said yeah I fucked up, I shouldn't have, but it was a shit time, then I could actually respect that honestly. But trying to insinuate that he didn't know, we all know that's bullshit.
 
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