Brexit WTF, WTF

[AnIdiot]

Fair enough, as I have stated before, I would have voted to Remain if we as a country were willing along with every other of the 26 countries in the EU, to totally abolish their own parliaments and have just one over all Parliament with local area councils dealing with local issues.

Having two Parliaments constantly fighting each other, with all the costs involved, is just a recipe for disaster. So would you be happy to concede all Scottish Parliament decisions to the EU and abolish Holyrood, turning the building into flats for all the boat immigrants ?

No, subsidiarity is the key. There's room for several levels of government from local through regional to national and international; the key is to define the areas of responsibility in order to avoid contention and to ensure that each level is representative.
The major source of contention that you reference above is driven by decisions being made or blocked in Westminster by governments that have no mandate in Scotland.

I'm sure you are aware of this but for those unfamiliar, it's worth highlighting that Scotland has not voted for a Conservative government since the 26th of May 1955.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I would also guess pretty confidently that if the English had a referendum on whether to become independent from Scotland, that it would be a much higher majority than 52/48.

So with the current crop of failing MInisters in charge ( Yousaf has failed miserably in every position he has filled ) and with anybody of any worth sidelined ( ministries such as Tourism and Social Affairs abolished and an Independence Minister on £98K appointed in there place ) do you think there is any longer a chance of voting for Independence?

 

[AnIdiot]

I would also guess pretty confidently that if the English had a referendum on whether to become independent from Scotland, that it would be a much higher majority than 52/48.

So why are they blocking it? Sounds like it would be a vote-winner... and boy, do they need one!

So with the current crop of failing MInisters in charge ( Yousaf has failed miserably in every position he has filled ) and with anybody of any worth sidelined ( ministries such as Tourism and Social Affairs abolished and an Independence Minister on £98K appointed in there place ) do you think there is any longer a chance of voting for Independence?

Me? Dunno.. not that bothered, TBH, as long as we can reverse the shift to the right and build closer ties to our friends next door. It would be better to do that as Britain, in my view, but that doesn't seem to be working.
If England wants to continue to impoverish itself while increasing social injustice, it would be really nice if they could acknowledge a bit of democracy along the way and stop blocking those who have consistently rejected their awful project.
I'll reserve judgement on Yousaf for now, though I'm relieved that neither of his opponents got the job.

 

[Waynemarlow]

it would be really nice if they could acknowledge a bit of democracy along the way and stop blocking those who have consistently rejected their awful project.

That really makes me laugh, I thought we had a referendum agreed to be acted upon by all ?

 

[AnIdiot]

That really makes me laugh, I thought we had a referendum agreed to be acted upon by all ?

(N.B. The below response could be read as plaintive and humourless- for clarity, I am not a fervent nationalist with a chip on his shoulder, nor am I ranting. It should be read in the wry, mocking tone of someone pointing out the underlying flaws in an ignorant assertion.)

You thought wrongly, then. We had an advisory vote, organised by a party with no mandate in Scotland (which was on record as stating that the best way to remain in the EU was to remain in the UK), in which Scotland voted an emphatic no and was ignored. We then had a general election, in which the party that did not have a mandate in Scotland lost support, further reducing it's mandate. Despite this, Scotland was required to leave the EU... yet when the party that did have an emphatic mandate requested a further vote to determine whether the electorate there still preferred to remain in the UK, they were denied it.

Which bit of this is funny? The bit where you get to impose your will through deceit and abuse of power?

Perhaps you'd like to explain why this is democratic? In particular, you could focus why Leaving the EU with a marginal mandate is OK but preventing Scotland from voting on whether they would like to rejoin is not?

...or you could ignore the inconvenient truth, as usual.
Go on... entertain us! Explain your thinking. It shouldn't take long.

Scotland is not Wales, you know, nor Northern Ireland or Yorkshire. It's not a region with a local government.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Go on... entertain us! Explain your thinking. It shouldn't take long.

Yep I was talking about the EU referendum and not the Scottish Indy ref.

Believe me Jack, I'm all for a Scot Indy Ref 2. I would suspect the SNP would be made to look even bigger fools than they already are.

 

[AnIdiot]

Yep I was talking about the EU referendum and not the Scottish Indy ref.

So, answer the question.

... I'm all for a Scot Indy Ref 2. I would suspect the SNP would be made to look even bigger fools than they already are.

Question remains... why is Westminster so set against it?

What are they afraid of losing?

 

[Jambalaya]

So, answer the question.

Question remains... why is Westminster so set against it?

What are they afraid of losing?

Westminster is the government of the United Kingdom. Westminster gave the Scots Indy Ref 1 and the SNP themselves said it was a "once in a generation" opportunity.

Support for independence in Scotland is lower than at any other time in my memory. The SNP even under Sturgeon lost their majority in the Scottish Parliament and had to rely on the Greens to form a government. It's highly likely that in the next general election the SNP will decline further.

I always said Brexit would make Scottish independence less likley. The already weak economic case has collapsed and the SNP have imploded. I never cared much for Sturgeon but she knew how to play the political game. She's gone and is now replaced by a gaff prone muppett. It's hard to see any outcome other than further SNP decline

 

[Jambalaya]

By the looks of it you are wielding one of those little paper parasols they put in cocktails Not a lot of shade off that sunshine. I cannot believe somebody of your intelligence even dared to bring that up.

From the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy : we have a free trade agreement with Europe.

So what percentage of GDP are we looking at .... ehm .... ehm .. ehm, I don't have figuires like that, ehm, ehm I'm not playing that game.

Where do they get these people from

The economic benefits of CPTPP will be greater than EU membership

Economic models cannot predict the future with any any degree of accuracy

 

[LeoV]

CPTTP;
The CPTPP agreement contains Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) provisions. These allow corporations to sue states through a secretive parallel legal system if govt polices threaten their future profits – even if they are aimed at protecting human rights and the environment.

The EU parliament has forced Brussels to ban ISDS clauses from future trade deals.
CETA was changed, and EU/US deal keeled over this.

UK, on the other hand, appears comfortable with the prospect of CPTPP countries beginning to dictate how the UK considers basic rights – and how this could become the price of easier trade, and more importantly, foreign policy.

 

[AnIdiot]

Westminster is the government of the United Kingdom. Westminster gave the Scots Indy Ref 1 and the SNP...

"Gave"

This is all very entertaining but it's just misdirected trolling and doesn’t answer the question; which was about the democratic deficit.

If you (or Wayne or other brexiteers) can't address that, it simply demonstrates that the brexit vote was profoundly undemocratic.
There was never majority support for leaving the EU. Brexit was never the "will of the people".

Now... about this sovereignty thing you keep claiming we got... it's costing a lot in all senses of the word. Remind me what enormous benefits it offers us?

 

[Waynemarlow]

If you (or Wayne or other brexiteers) can't address that, it simply demonstrates that the brexit vote was profoundly undemocratic.
There was never majority support for leaving the EU. Brexit was never the "will of the people".

I would have thought even to a soch puppet that a referendum that 34M with a 72% turnout of the electorate voted, would have convinced you as being democratic. But then you are one of those that consider all 28% that didn’t vote, would have voted Remain.

But then if you are a sock puppet you are indeed living in a dream world. Just for Flaming

 

[AnIdiot]

I would have thought even to a soch puppet that a referendum that 34M with a 72% turnout of the electorate voted, would have convinced you as being democratic. But then you are one of those that consider all 28% that didn’t vote, would have voted Remain.

But then if you are a sock puppet you are indeed living in a dream world. Just for Flaming
View attachment 583551

Whoosh!

 

[Laser1]

The economic benefits of CPTPP will be greater than EU membership

What was it she said in the vid? somewhere in the 2050's if you are very lucky, if all the planets align, if everybody plays the game, if all the models agree, if all the predictions come true and if we haven't had WWIII by that time or another banking collapse or two.

By my reckoning that is 27 years away.

Fuck that.

 

[cms]

Clouds and cuckoos .... Or maybe unicorns and sunlit uplands? Jambo is in a parallel universe.

 

[Jambalaya]

Some interesting commentary over the weekend.

CPTPP makes it incredibly difficult for the UK to enter into a customs union arrangement with EU let alone rejoining. As such @Waynemarlow was spot on with his earlier comment - CPTPP makes UK rejoining EU or a future government trying to forge a closer relationship with EU almost impossible

CPTPP gives UK a big leg up in terms of Asia region influence and our membership was strongly supported by nations we already have bilateral trade deals with namely Japan, Australia and Canada. They know UK membership brings a lot of benefits in other than trade

CPTPP is almost certainly the fastest way to enter into a trade deal with US as it is likely they will join at some stage (Obama had been very keen to do so)

Headline GDP benefit comes out relatively low in model terms as UK already has trade deals with most of the current members. However further expansion of the block is almost certain to be amongst countries the UK does not have a trade deal with

 

[Jambalaya]

What was it she said in the vid? somewhere in the 2050's if you are very lucky, if all the planets align, if everybody plays the game, if all the models agree, if all the predictions come true and if we haven't had WWIII by that time or another banking collapse or two.

By my reckoning that is 27 years away.

Fuck that.

See my comment above. This is modelled on current membership, thr whole point of CPTPP is the way it will be expanding. Modern, progressive and amongst the world's growth markets

 

[Jambalaya]

The UK’s accession to the giant Asian trading bloc CPTPP is an economic and political triumph. Belonging to this bloc – larger, much faster growing and more liberal in trade policy than the EU – is incompatible with EU membership. No future UK government could realistically attempt to leave the CPTPP and re-join the EU. Brexit is therefore now effectively irreversible. This breakthrough reinforces the view that UK economic prospects are brighter than commonly perceived.

BREXIT IS NOW IRREVERSIBLE! - Briefings For Britain

The UK’s accession to the giant Asian trading bloc CPTPP is an economic and political triumph. Belonging to this bloc – larger, much faster growing and more liberal in trade policy than the EU - is incompatible with EU membership. No future UK government could realistically attempt to leave the...

www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk

 

[Flaming]

Briefings for Britain? Good grief... You guys get upset if someone quotes the Guardian, which is an actual newspaper.
You've just quoted a campaigning organisation. They have zero credibility, they used to be called "briefings for Brexit". Honestly, if this is where you're getting your analysis....

CPTPP membership is interesting. From a very personal point of view it will make absolutely no difference to our exports, for the simple reason that we were not subject to any significant export tariffs to any of those countries, all of whom we export to. That region accounts for about 20% of our total sales. Where we did have a tariff, NZ for example, it was very small and dwarfed by the costs of getting the stuff to the other side of the planet. A removal of a 5% tariff would result in about 1% reduced cost to the end user, which I doubt they'd even see, and certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to change from the cheaper, inferior, Chinese made product which is less than half the price landed in NZ.

Brexit supporters are very keen to say that this prevents us from going back. Which is logical nonsense. If leaving a trade block was so difficult that it is never to be countenanced, then we could never have left the EU....

I've said it a hundred times, but it's not my opinion, or your opinion that matters here. It's the opinions of the large number of people who don't care about sovereignty or free movement, or obscure finance EU rules etc, but who only voted for Brexit because you lot said that they'd be better off. If you can't convince them that they are, they'll flip, already are flipping, then eventually rejoining becomes a vote winner.
The EU was blamed by some for absolutely everything that was wrong with the UK for the best part of 40 years. and leaving was presented as the panacea for all ills. The shoe is on the other foot now....

 

[Laser1]

economic and political triumph.

Hmm, like the oven ready deal, the 'revised' NIP or the slick arrangements at the port of Dover ? .... those kind of triumphs.

The only Triumphs I see are the ones that leak oil all over the road when I blast past them on my Yammy 1200.

Quite apt to be honest