Brexit, WTF
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LeoV
Super Anarchist
A little outdated but informatife anyway
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/is-europe-outperforming-the-us/
“Over recent decades the [EU] has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society.”
Why are these figures not better known? Europe is not good at “marketing” itself. Despite a tough sovereign debt crisis, the debt to GDP of the 28-country euro area is 89% or, for the earlier 19-country euro area 96%. The U.S. figure is 105%. The euro area’s fiscal balances are healthier — Figure 5; the euro 15-country area’s productivity per hour worked exceeds that of the U.S., and its labor markets are getting stronger: Since 2000, the employment rate has increased in the euro area but fallen by around six percentage points in the U.S. The participation rate in the euro area stabilized after rising in 2009; in the U.S. it continues to decline.
Figure 5: Selected comparative fiscal balances (% of GDP)
Source: European Commission, Economic Forecast — Spring 2015
Of course, the U.S. has several strengths compared to Europe: an exceptional entrepreneurial culture, a competitive edge in technology and innovation and better developed capital markets, as many U.S. companies rely on these markets to fund expansion rather than on banks. A single country with a common language also makes it easier to have an integrated economy.
Among Europe’s strengths, the EU remains one of the largest economies in the world with a GDP per head of US$37,000 for its over half billion citizens and consumers. It is the world’s largest trader of manufactured goods and services, whose large internal market accommodates 65% of its overall trade, given low labor costs and a well-educated common market workforce. It is also first in both inbound and outbound international investments. It is a top trading partner for 80 countries compared to 20 plus for the U.S. Excluding fuels, the EU imports more from developing countries and continents, such as Africa, than Canada, China, Japan and the U.S. — combined. The EU, at peace and united in diversity, benefits from low-cost development and greater social responsibility, particularly on issues of welfare and climate control.
With all this in mind, is Europe outperforming the United States? The EU has long been seen as the best peace creation project of all time, with no wars at its core over the last 70 years. Over recent decades it has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society, including 100 million new citizens over the past decade. This means that if you are lucky enough to belong to the top 1% or 10% in the U.S., you are no doubt quite well off. In Europe, life at the top is also not bad, but if you happen to be, like the majority of the population, in the bottom 90%, or one of 450 million people, in Europe you are far better off.
Not only is Europe producing an admirable and competitive growth model, it is, by design and conviction, deploying the wealth generated in economic solidarity with its broader population, not just for the top 1%. That is Europe’s greatest economic accomplishment, its greatest competitive advantage and the key to its outperformance.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/is-europe-outperforming-the-us/
“Over recent decades the [EU] has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society.”
Why are these figures not better known? Europe is not good at “marketing” itself. Despite a tough sovereign debt crisis, the debt to GDP of the 28-country euro area is 89% or, for the earlier 19-country euro area 96%. The U.S. figure is 105%. The euro area’s fiscal balances are healthier — Figure 5; the euro 15-country area’s productivity per hour worked exceeds that of the U.S., and its labor markets are getting stronger: Since 2000, the employment rate has increased in the euro area but fallen by around six percentage points in the U.S. The participation rate in the euro area stabilized after rising in 2009; in the U.S. it continues to decline.
Figure 5: Selected comparative fiscal balances (% of GDP)
Source: European Commission, Economic Forecast — Spring 2015
Of course, the U.S. has several strengths compared to Europe: an exceptional entrepreneurial culture, a competitive edge in technology and innovation and better developed capital markets, as many U.S. companies rely on these markets to fund expansion rather than on banks. A single country with a common language also makes it easier to have an integrated economy.
Among Europe’s strengths, the EU remains one of the largest economies in the world with a GDP per head of US$37,000 for its over half billion citizens and consumers. It is the world’s largest trader of manufactured goods and services, whose large internal market accommodates 65% of its overall trade, given low labor costs and a well-educated common market workforce. It is also first in both inbound and outbound international investments. It is a top trading partner for 80 countries compared to 20 plus for the U.S. Excluding fuels, the EU imports more from developing countries and continents, such as Africa, than Canada, China, Japan and the U.S. — combined. The EU, at peace and united in diversity, benefits from low-cost development and greater social responsibility, particularly on issues of welfare and climate control.
With all this in mind, is Europe outperforming the United States? The EU has long been seen as the best peace creation project of all time, with no wars at its core over the last 70 years. Over recent decades it has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society, including 100 million new citizens over the past decade. This means that if you are lucky enough to belong to the top 1% or 10% in the U.S., you are no doubt quite well off. In Europe, life at the top is also not bad, but if you happen to be, like the majority of the population, in the bottom 90%, or one of 450 million people, in Europe you are far better off.
Not only is Europe producing an admirable and competitive growth model, it is, by design and conviction, deploying the wealth generated in economic solidarity with its broader population, not just for the top 1%. That is Europe’s greatest economic accomplishment, its greatest competitive advantage and the key to its outperformance.
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
Tell that to the Greeks or the Spanish...
mad
Super Anarchist
LeoV
Super Anarchist
I lived and worked in Spain, the people I still have contact with (middle class and lower) do not see the Eu as the problem maker, but world (2008 crises) and internal politics.
There is still no anti EU far right party in parliament there. Unique in the EU.
For the Greeks, they are still in, not happy, but still in. So you would have expected a referendum there to get out. No such thing.
The suffered immensely, partly due too the EU, but many recognize their own old style politicians were scumbags and disaster was waiting to happen. But people still kept voting for scumbags as they gained from it in short term. I only spoke to a few Greeks while I was sailing there this summer, that was their thinking, mostly younger people though. The Greeks I spoke here (a few and older 40 yrs at least) are far more condemning of their old politicians, scumbags is even a friendly word.
Reminder, in 1975 they still were under dictatorship, so came a long way. It was a highly politicized, you voted for x because he arranged something for you, being free water, building permit etc. Lots of corruption.
You would expect more countries to follow the UK and go for an exit if the EU was so bad to be into. To my surprise it did not happen. I really thought Greece would step out too.
There is still no anti EU far right party in parliament there. Unique in the EU.
For the Greeks, they are still in, not happy, but still in. So you would have expected a referendum there to get out. No such thing.
The suffered immensely, partly due too the EU, but many recognize their own old style politicians were scumbags and disaster was waiting to happen. But people still kept voting for scumbags as they gained from it in short term. I only spoke to a few Greeks while I was sailing there this summer, that was their thinking, mostly younger people though. The Greeks I spoke here (a few and older 40 yrs at least) are far more condemning of their old politicians, scumbags is even a friendly word.
Reminder, in 1975 they still were under dictatorship, so came a long way. It was a highly politicized, you voted for x because he arranged something for you, being free water, building permit etc. Lots of corruption.
You would expect more countries to follow the UK and go for an exit if the EU was so bad to be into. To my surprise it did not happen. I really thought Greece would step out too.
smellibits
Member
Events of the last few decades might give pause for thought on this.
- the breakup of the former Yugoslavia
- Czech/Slovakia
- Catalan, Basque, Scottish, Welsh..... succession movements, which the EU feigns to ignore as they are antithesis to an increasingly centrist philosophy
- you even get mutterings in Belgium, with the Flemish and Walloon split!
- nationalism has been increasingly to the fore, with increasing tones of illiberalism and racism: take Hungary as a current example
It was always naive to think, as many of our politicians seemed to, that the EU would not play hard ball in the Brexit negotiations, and that remains and will remain the case - ' pour encourager les autres '. But the trends are there and if there are increasing doubts about the EU as an economic proposition, well who knows.
On a point of anecdote, I've spent quite a lot of time in Europe over the past year, and when the subject of Brexit pops up, and I can't avoid it even though I know it's likely to spoil my day, recurrent themes and questions are
- you ought to remain
- will May get something through Parliament ( I have been pessimistic throughout - answer probably not )
- if May resigns or sacks, who replaces her ( answer - I dread to think, but it would be a much more committed Brexiteer )
- would there be a general election ( answer - Tories would almost certainly resist strongly, and there are at least they'd have the continuing support of the DUP )
- if there was a general election, who would win ( answer - probably a hung parliament )
- will there be another referendum ( answer, difficult, but there would be fundamental constitutional issues about reversing the command given by the electorate in the last referendum, and even if there was, there would be difficult questions about the question(s) to be put on the ballot paper - this would go to court, undoubtedly, IMHO )
- who would win a referendum ( my answer that there would be a very serious prospect that the leavers would win is met with heads shaking in disbelief, but that's my take: there are strong, some would say ill-informed, views, in England anyway where such a referendum would probably be won or lost, of fuck you politicians, fuck the establishment, fuck the City, fuck the South East and those that want to keep what they've got, you remainers ( and many others ) cried wolf at the last referendum about the economic impact of Brexit and have been caught out - and last but by no means least, fuck Brussels and the EU )
Time to go and have a drink
mad
Super Anarchist
captain_crunch
Anarchist
Yeah, right! Try telling the Greeks and the Spanish that the EU is failing. The reality is that both countries saw the advantages of EU membership as being so compelling that they were willing to endure the suffering caused by extreme austerity to stay in. Compared to other countries in the EU, the UK should have a relatively easy exit path because the UK does not participate in the Euro, but the UK has become the poster child for all the reasons why leaving is a bad idea.
Spain faced the Catalan separatist movement and the UK faced the Scottish separatist movement. Both movements failed at least in part because of the desire of the separatists to stay in the EU. The EU made it clear in both cases that any newly created countries would have to go through a lengthy process to join. Now with the UK poised to exit the EU, there is new motivation for Scotland (and Northern Ireland) to seek independence.
I am an American, but I feel strongly about this for several reasons. I have a Greek cousin who now works in the London branch of an American financial institution. I have a grandfather who was from Leeds. His mother was Scottish and his father was English. During the referendum on Scottish independence, I felt strongly that Scotland should remain part of the UK. I felt my loyalty was betrayed when the UK voted to leave the EU, especially given that Scotland voted to remain.
NaptimeAgain
Super Anarchist
If we ran the US "like a business" we would close every state that loses money, i.e. receives more Federal money than it pays in taxes. People living in those states would be "fired", i.e. their citizenship would be revoked unless they found a profitable state willing to take them in. Alternatively, we could sell those states to Russia or China or N Korea etc. and the residents would become subjects of those new corporate parents. Here's the list. Only 14 states are net contributors to the national profit.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/
LeoV
Super Anarchist
I am thinking, need more pause to think as I do not see some relevancies.
Yugo, all ex states wants to get in, and Czech/Slovakia are both in.
Succession, the EU charter do not give them any rights in this, except the warning finger. It is internal, no EU laws for that.
Belgium, I am there every week, it is a special needs child.
Rising nationalism is a concern fro the EU, or a cure ? The ex Eastern Block counties seems to be good in that. Lots based on the same problem that fuels the Brexit, immigration and own culture. The own culture is IMHO not a big deal, but immigration can be, from outside the EU, not so much within. So I get that point.
My question to UK would be; how much wealth do you want to trade for independence ?
And I am totally aware that for most money does not make you more happy, as long as we talk up to 10 % or so. Maybe the UK will prosper in the long run, who knows.
From the EU view; It as a big social undertaking, but nothing like for instance the break up of the USSR, its only the UK. Troublemakers from the get go. They hate to see the UK go, for unity reasons, money, army etc. Some countries are glad to get rid of them, but not a majority, no way.
From the UK view, it is the biggest social undertaking since the breakdown of The Empire. Could succeed, could be hardship in the future.
So for the UK it is a bigger thing then for the EU.
And one thing is a bit off, but unavoidable, you vote for remain, one option, you remain, as is. You vote Leave, what kind of Leaving ? Many answers.
That is the mess now in the UK.
Laser1
Super Anarchist
I am one of those pesky EU 'immigrants'. Been coming here for 40 years on family holidays with the boat from when I was a nipper. Later for many Cowes Weeks and RORC offshores and now living & working here for the last 11 years. I never questioned my status in the UK and it never entered my mind that I would be regarded any different by the locals. Oh how that has changed !
There have been a few occasions when people asked where I came from, in that peculiar way, and the mere notion that I am now regarded as a second class citizen does not sit well. Fortunately not from close friends and at work they take the piss anyway but it is more a general feeling of not being welcome anymore and carrying 'that label'.
There is a lot of uncertainty and we have been, and depending on how this train crash ends, will be used as bargaining chips.
"Oh, you will be okay" somehow does not cut it and it's a *kin crying shame.
There have been a few occasions when people asked where I came from, in that peculiar way, and the mere notion that I am now regarded as a second class citizen does not sit well. Fortunately not from close friends and at work they take the piss anyway but it is more a general feeling of not being welcome anymore and carrying 'that label'.
There is a lot of uncertainty and we have been, and depending on how this train crash ends, will be used as bargaining chips.
"Oh, you will be okay" somehow does not cut it and it's a *kin crying shame.
mad
Super Anarchist
I was wonder if this is the same feeling that expats living and working in the EU feel?
Has there been a declaration from the EU on where they stand with this? The EU seems to be remarkably quiet about a lot of the details.
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Laser1
Super Anarchist
They are also victims of the same train crash but I somehow have the feeling that they are made to feel more welcome (or no change) by the locals wherever they are. The only snag is that the value of, and the ease of getting at their pensions will more difficult. But that is on the UK's plate, not the EU's.
mad
Super Anarchist
That I can believe! Where are you based? And potentially would you have to leave if there is a no-deal?
Sorry to hear that people feel that way towards you, I work with and know plenty of Europeans and I’ve not heard them say this. They are concerned about the situation, but have never said they feel unwelcome.
This whole fucking mess is embarrassing.
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NaptimeAgain
Super Anarchist
London Heathrow has been an easy gateway city for us from the US to Europe for business and vacations. I'm booking EU travel post Brexit and will likely go through Amsterdam instead. Even though I'll have to fly out of Dulles instead of BWI, which is a huge pain from Annapolis. The flight into Schipol is about the same duration especially when you kill 30 minutes holding in the landing queue over Heathrow. But I think a UK vacation should be cheaper in future as the pound drops against the dollar. Mach Loop in Wales looks very cool and haven't managed to get there yet.
SloopJonB
Super Anarchist
AJ Oliver
Super Anarchist
Note how the British right that set Brexit in motion now refuses to take any
responsibility for the chaos that has ensued.
How Trumpian
responsibility for the chaos that has ensued.
How Trumpian
Albatros
Super Anarchist
- 4,038
- 521
still haven't gotten over the fact that we kicked you out huh ?
to quote one of the best Dutch writers ever : "wij hollanders mogen de belgen dankbaar zijn omdat ze voor ons de kastanjes uit het vuur halen" ... spot the writer and spot the background, which is still relevant, especially in view of your stupid remark
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Cuffy
New member
A little outdated but informatife anyway
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/is-europe-outperforming-the-us/
“Over recent decades the [EU] has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society.”
Why are these figures not better known? Europe is not good at “marketing” itself. Despite a tough sovereign debt crisis, the debt to GDP of the 28-country euro area is 89% or, for the earlier 19-country euro area 96%. The U.S. figure is 105%. The euro area’s fiscal balances are healthier — Figure 5; the euro 15-country area’s productivity per hour worked exceeds that of the U.S., and its labor markets are getting stronger: Since 2000, the employment rate has increased in the euro area but fallen by around six percentage points in the U.S. The participation rate in the euro area stabilized after rising in 2009; in the U.S. it continues to decline.
Figure 5: Selected comparative fiscal balances (% of GDP)
Source: European Commission, Economic Forecast — Spring 2015
Of course, the U.S. has several strengths compared to Europe: an exceptional entrepreneurial culture, a competitive edge in technology and innovation and better developed capital markets, as many U.S. companies rely on these markets to fund expansion rather than on banks. A single country with a common language also makes it easier to have an integrated economy.
Among Europe’s strengths, the EU remains one of the largest economies in the world with a GDP per head of US$37,000 for its over half billion citizens and consumers. It is the world’s largest trader of manufactured goods and services, whose large internal market accommodates 65% of its overall trade, given low labor costs and a well-educated common market workforce. It is also first in both inbound and outbound international investments. It is a top trading partner for 80 countries compared to 20 plus for the U.S. Excluding fuels, the EU imports more from developing countries and continents, such as Africa, than Canada, China, Japan and the U.S. — combined. The EU, at peace and united in diversity, benefits from low-cost development and greater social responsibility, particularly on issues of welfare and climate control.
With all this in mind, is Europe outperforming the United States? The EU has long been seen as the best peace creation project of all time, with no wars at its core over the last 70 years. Over recent decades it has also proven to be an enviably efficient wealth creation machine – and not just for those at the top of the population, but for the entire society, including 100 million new citizens over the past decade. This means that if you are lucky enough to belong to the top 1% or 10% in the U.S., you are no doubt quite well off. In Europe, life at the top is also not bad, but if you happen to be, like the majority of the population, in the bottom 90%, or one of 450 million people, in Europe you are far better off.
Not only is Europe producing an admirable and competitive growth model, it is, by design and conviction, deploying the wealth generated in economic solidarity with its broader population, not just for the top 1%. That is Europe’s greatest economic accomplishment, its greatest competitive advantage and the key to its outperformance.
LONDON - For the first time in seven years, the Eurozone's economy grew quicker than the UK's last year, data from Eurostat confirmed.
Eu has done very well!
The unemployment rate in the Euro Area was steady at 8.1 percent in October of 2018, the same as in each of the previous three months but higher than market expectations of 8 percent. It remained the lowest jobless rate since November of 2008. Unemployment Rate in the Euro Area averaged 9.71 percent from 1995 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 12.10 percent in February of 2013 and a record low of 7.30 percent in October of 2007.
UK currently at 4 and US even lower
