but wait, there's more!

[Reference]

This thread more and more convinces me that the majority of people are retards.

The fucking boat was measured. The sails were recut smaller and remeasured. The rating improved a tiny bit.

They won… big fucking deal. This is what winning teams do... they optimize to to the rating, there’s nothing suspicious about this.

(oh yeah, and they made a mistake with a sail configuration in an obscure ORC rule that almost no one knew about… and guess what… they did the righy thing and retired from the ORC class)

Retards…

 

[Snaggletooth]

This thread more and more convinces me that the majority of people are retards.

Tackes oune to no oune........... as thaye saye

 

[sunseeker]

frankly, a lot of this would go away if boats had to choose a single division for their entry. Being able to double- (or triple-)dip the standings creates enormous potential for this kind of stuff.

If I was an owner, I’d be embarrassed to enter a boat with two ratings. To me, it seems pathetically weak, like you are begging for a trophy. Right now, as best I can figure, Celestial chested. That’s the way the story plays to the casual observer. I fail to see how cheating in one rule makes it ok to be scored in any aspect of the race using another rule. It’s a stupid way to run a race, and the sport.

 

[Goodvibes]

(oh yeah, and they made a mistake with a sail configuration in an obscure ORC rule that almost no one knew about… and guess what… they did the righy thing and retired from the ORC class)

Sailors are remarkably selective on the rules to the point of cheating stupidity.

Flying sails to break rules? No wukking flurries!

But if your over the line at the start by a fraction of a boat length, all hell will break loose!

Still not discussed enough here, is why did they accept the ORCI trophy, knowing that they broke to rules?

 

[Snowden]

Also legal sail wardrobes that are only legal in certain combinations is kind of silly in a rating rule. What's next - twa restrictions for sails?

Always going to be the case if you allow multiple spinnakers to be carried. Unless you want to go back to the blooper days.

Unless someone's going to tell me they've never heard of the "obscure rule" that prevents flying multiple spinnakers and they do it all the time.

 

[Goodvibes]

I thought your suspicions were based on your admitted inability to resist cheating and your belief that if you do it, everyone else does as well.

This David guy sounds as tedious as you.

Are you “Anarchist David”?

So the guy pointing out the problems with this race is "honest David" and "Tedious".

Seen this heaps of times, particularly when the guy coming 72nd, rightly protest the guy coming 68th. Cunts and arseholes laugh at this, I applaud anyone no matter where they are placed, for upholding the rules of the sport.

I am saying that because of a lack of governance in the sport, that other boats are also likely to be worried about an audit.

But people like you find referring to the rules as 'tedious' and anyone who bothers can be derided and "Honest whoever".

That sick.

 

[longy]

Statement from Sam Haynes 24 January:

"“Celestial was weighed, with seven other IRC yachts in early December (after the Cabbage Tree Island Race). The measurement process included weighing the bulb. "

But the noise early was all about 'shaving the bulb'. In fact all the noise was about a change made at the last minute, not made with the other boats.

On FP 12 January

"Before the December 16 rating, the previous certificate boat weight was 6,948 kilos. The bulb was 3,602 kilos. After the bulb was ‘shaved’ its stated new weight reduced to 3,363 –239 kilos lighter. But the boat’s weight only came down 26 kilos to 6,922. "

So, I must be missing something, it looks like Sam just whitewashed over the later changes at the centre of the controversy? That he only did what the other boats did?

Anyone?

This statement on total weight is what I question. Yes, they had a wrong sail config up, but did drop out of that class. entering in multiple ratings is pretty standard, even here in the west coast of US boats will enter under measurement rule and PHRF. Playing with sail sizes is common - but those changes are simple to track by comparing old vs new rating measurement sheets
But there seems to be a 200 kg error in weighing the boat. IF about 239 kgs comes out of the keel, why does total boat weight only change 26 kgs?? Unless one can point to a whole lot of extra stuff being included in the total boat weight, the measurement is questionable. Either the previous weighing was faulty or the new weighing was faulty. Either way it does not reflect well on the measurement system in play

 

[The Dark Knight]

frankly, a lot of this would go away if boats had to choose a single division for their entry. Being able to double- (or triple-)dip the standings creates enormous potential for this kind of stuff.

Perhaps that’s not a bad idea. Will leave ORCi to club racers doing the race for the adventure and who only got it for stability.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Sailors are remarkably selective on the rules to the point of cheating stupidity.

Flying sails to break rules? No wukking flurries!

But if your over the line at the start by a fraction of a boat length, all hell will break loose!

Still not discussed enough here, is why did they accept the ORCI trophy, knowing that they broke to rules?

Flying sails because they are allowed under the only important rating system in the race. Fucking cowardly idiot.

 

[The Dark Knight]

So the guy pointing out the problems with this race is "honest David" and "Tedious".

Seen this heaps of times, particularly when the guy coming 72nd, rightly protest the guy coming 68th. Cunts and arseholes laugh at this, I applaud anyone no matter where they are placed, for upholding the rules of the sport.

I am saying that because of a lack of governance in the sport, that other boats are also likely to be worried about an audit.

But people like you find referring to the rules as 'tedious' and anyone who bothers can be derided and "Honest whoever".

That sick.

So why don’t you lodge a request for a rating review. At least being here in Aus, your request might be seen as more relevant than the pomm

 

[The Dark Knight]

But there seems to be a 200 kg error in weighing the boat. IF about 239 kgs comes out of the keel, why does total boat weight only change 26 kgs?? Unless one can point to a whole lot of extra stuff being included in the total boat weight, the measurement is questionable. Either the previous weighing was faulty or the new weighing was faulty. Either way it does not reflect well on the measurement system in play

depends on when the previous weighing took place. If it was last weighed when new and racing inshore, then the weight discrepancy seems very logical.

That then puts the “cheating” on the owner who got it setup for offshore

 

[Hitchhiker]

This statement on total weight is what I question. Yes, they had a wrong sail config up, but did drop out of that class. entering in multiple ratings is pretty standard, even here in the west coast of US boats will enter under measurement rule and PHRF. Playing with sail sizes is common - but those changes are simple to track by comparing old vs new rating measurement sheets
But there seems to be a 200 kg error in weighing the boat. IF about 239 kgs comes out of the keel, why does total boat weight only change 26 kgs?? Unless one can point to a whole lot of extra stuff being included in the total boat weight, the measurement is questionable. Either the previous weighing was faulty or the new weighing was faulty. Either way it does not reflect well on the measurement system in play

This is key. A number of posters here want hang the winning owner. But, the reality is that measurement is not consistent and seems to be in error.

What I don't understand is why the competition has not lodged a rating protest. They pay big bucks to race their 52's. If they think there is an issue........

I don't buy into this complacency argument.

 

[Goodvibes]

Flying sails because they are allowed under the only important rating system in the race. Fucking cowardly idiot.

Why did they accept the ORCI trophy, knowing that they broke the rules?

 

[dchs89]

Weight discrepancy was explained by Jack Macartney in an actual piece of journalism at Sail-World published January 2: "I joined Celestial in 2019, and the boat had never been weighed since new. I said to Sam that I want to remeasure the boat and try and get the rating better than where we were. I felt we were rated very high for a 2011 boat, and although 12 years old since build, we had one of the highest ratings. So we weighed the boat, and discovered that it was heavier than thought. We went to J/V and they said, well, you should take a couple of hundred kilos out of the bulb. The boat's got so much form stability in the hull shape. Ordinarily I would not go for a big change, especially close to a race, but they were insistent. So we did it."

The boat has been carrying 69xxkg on its rating certificates when it actually weighed 71xxkg. Look around the TP52 fleet, it is perfectly normal for the boats to weight between 69xxkg and 71xxkg. When they worked it out they took a couple hundred kilos out of the bulb on the advice of the designer. Where's the conspiracy?

 

[Goodvibes]

The boat has been carrying 69xxkg on its rating certificates when it actually weighed 71xxkg. Look around the TP52 fleet, it is perfectly normal for the boats to weight between 69xxkg and 71xxkg. When they worked it out they took a couple hundred kilos out of the bulb on the advice of the designer. Where's the conspiracy?

The question is why the boat still weighed pretty much the same after taking over 200kg of the bulb.

Have you not been paying attention?

 

[dchs89]

Why did they accept the ORCI trophy, knowing that they broke the rules?

What made you decide they knew they broke the rule before accepting the trophy when earlier on you were begging to find out whether they knew or not?

Warrior Won also withdrew for flying the same headsail configuration which is interesting because being a US boat, they have done a lot of racing where ORC is the only measurement rule in effect.

From the ORC: "ORC believes the different sail measurement rules between ORCi and IRC is unhelpful and costly for the sailing community, and the ORC will continue their efforts to converge these issues in the Universal Measurement System during 2023."

 

[Goodvibes]

What made you decide they knew they broke the rule before accepting the trophy when earlier on you were begging to find out whether they knew or not?

It was a cheeky rhetorical question.

There are unconfirmed rumours that there were dockside discussions soon after arrival, but whether that happened or not, it beggars belief, after the publication of the image, that they did not know it was out there. But even giving them the benefit of the doubt, what are they supposed to do, claim that they did not understand the rules and regulations of the race?

The owner's latest statement and what he did not say, has made it worse.

Warrior Won also withdrew for flying the same headsail configuration which is interesting because being a US boat, they have done a lot of racing where ORC is the only measurement rule in effect.

Aaaaannnd this backs up the claim that they did it because they have done it before, everyone does it. An endemic problem. "Let he who has never sinned .... " You know how it goes.

For the rest of them, they can use the Bart Simpson defense. "I didn't do it, no one saw me do it."

 

[dchs89]

The question is why the boat still weighed pretty much the same after taking the lead of the bulb. Have you not been paying attention?

BECAUSE THEY REWEIGHED THE BOAT AFTER USING THE SAME MEASUREMENT FOR THE LAST 11 YEARS AND IT CAME OUT AT 71XXKG INSTEAD OF 69XXKG. INSTEAD OF RERATING THE BOAT AT 71XXKG THEY TOOK THE DIFFERENCE IN WEIGHT FROM THE BULB. THIS MEANS THEIR RATING GOES DOWN BECAUSE GIVEN TWO BOATS OF THE SAME DISPLACEMENT IRC PENALISES THE BOAT WITH MORE WEIGHT IN THE BULB. PAY ATTENTION.

 

[Reference]

The question is why the boat still weighed pretty much the same after taking over 200kg of the bulb.

Have you not been paying attention?

No you dense fucking retard. The boat weighed MORE than it was supposed to (based on some older and outdated measurement).

So they REMOVED weight and had it it remeasured.

When you take a Med TP and set it up for offshore, it’s going to gain weight. My God you are a dumb little twat.

 

[Goodvibes]

No you dense fucking retard. The boat weighed MORE than it was supposed to (based on some older and outdated measurement).

So they REMOVED weight and had it it remeasured.

When you take a Med TP and set it up for offshore, it’s going to gain weight. My God you are a dumb little twat.

I can see that, but I can't see a relationship between that and the words of the owner currently on the front page.