00seven
James "Grumpy" Bond
It' still there... (my downvote to you is for demo purposes only)
but wait, there's more!
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Snaggletooth
SA's Morrelle Compasse
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Ist alle the wayr to the lefte
The Dark Knight
Super Anarchist
I found the 2012 ORCi cert for the boats original inshore configuration when it was racinbg as Audi All Four One (according to Scanas)
Audi (2012)- Displacement 7,152 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/30907
Could not find a rating for any of the other names of the boat until Celestial.
Celestial (2019) Displacement 6,953kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/122848
Celestial (2020) Displacement 6,986kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/133724
Celestial (April 2022) Displacement 6,988 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/163121
Celestial (December 2022) Displacement 6,922 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/175685
Discuss......
Audi (2012)- Displacement 7,152 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/30907
Could not find a rating for any of the other names of the boat until Celestial.
Celestial (2019) Displacement 6,953kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/122848
Celestial (2020) Displacement 6,986kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/133724
Celestial (April 2022) Displacement 6,988 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/163121
Celestial (December 2022) Displacement 6,922 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/175685
Discuss......
Ease the sheet.
ignoring stupid people is easy
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This.
Begs the question, what's an appropriate tolerance to apply to the measurement numbers?
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
Whatever the rule says.
In the case of IRC and rating reviews:
9.7 Where the TCC is reviewed, either as a result of a rating review or a protest, and found
to be more than 0.005 greater than before, the contested certificate is invalid from the
date of issue.
9.8 In either case where the TCC is reviewed, the certificate becomes invalid if any remeasurement which increases the boat’s rating differs from the measurement shown on
the certificate by more than 1% of: LH, LWP, Hull Beam, Draft, P, E, J, FL, STL, SPL,
HLUmax, MUW, MTW, MHW (see Appendix A); by more than 2% of SPA, HSA or FSA; by
more than 5% of y, x or h; or by 5% in respect of weights; or if specific detail is clearly in
error.
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
2019 is the rig, foil and bulb change, so ignore anything before that first Celestial cert.
I don't know why numbers changed 2019 to 2020 to April 2022 - when the measurement and flotation dates remained fixed at 28/11/2019 on all three, and there's no notes on the certs. about adding more weight through equipment changes.
Its the 6988 -> 6922 change which is the important one.
Ease the sheet.
ignoring stupid people is easy
- 20,983
- 2,668
Ease the sheet.
ignoring stupid people is easy
- 20,983
- 2,668
duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
no - that's the "~200kg removed from the bulb, but displacement on the cert didn't really change much" point.
(6988 - 200) != 6922 +- tolerance
Goodvibes
under the southern cross I stand ...
- 2,303
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Ok I will,
Something on the honk here ...
Celestial (2019) Displacement 6,953kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/122848
Celestial (April 2022) Displacement 6,988 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/163121
then,
We get this ... https://www.sail-world.com/news/257291/Metaphors-run-thick-and-deep
"I joined Celestial in 2019, and the boat had never been weighed since new. I said to Sam that I want to remeasure the boat and try and get the rating better than where we were.
"I felt we were rated very high for a 2011 boat, and although 12 years old since build, we had one of the highest ratings. So we weighed the boat, and discovered that it was heavier than thought. We went to J/V and they said, well, you should take a couple of hundred kilos out of the bulb. The boat's got so much form stability in the hull shape. Ordinarily I would not go for a big change, especially close to a race, but they were insistent. So we did it."
EDIT: (12 years since build is more than 2019, in case you doubt when it was chopped.)
How the fuck could they not know what it weighed?
EDIT
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Ease the sheet.
ignoring stupid people is easy
- 20,983
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duncan (the other one)
Super Anarchist
agreed -- which is less than the limit on anything actionable after a review, however the IRC measurement manual (https://ircrating.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/IRC-Measurement-Manual-2023.pdf) says the load cell must be +-0.2% of full scale with a better than 10kg resolution.
Boat weight must be no less than 15% of load cell capacity.. so a worst case +-1.3% accuracy assuming you used the largest legal cell (~45 tonne). That's ~ +-90kg
134kg is just within the accepted tolerances measurement to measurement (180kg absolute worst case, but more likely 90 x sqrt(2) ~ 130kg) even IF the largest cell was used.
yes, we're ignoring other sources of measurement error for now.
If something more suitable like a 10T cell was used, then accuracy should be better than +-20kg and you'd expect reproducibility to be around 30kg.
Goodvibes
under the southern cross I stand ...
- 2,303
- 806
Someone help me out here.
Celestial (2019) Displacement 6,953kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/122848
Celestial (2020) Displacement 6,986kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/133724
Celestial (April 2022) Displacement 6,988 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/163121
Celestial (December 2022) Displacement 6,922 kg https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/175685
The special weighing he was talking about supposedly happened in Dec 2022. But the boat has been weighed as part of routine several times before that, including early Dec 2022 with 5 other boats.
I am not asking about the small differences in mass, I'm asking why they claim it was 'heavier than thought' was the problem and that 230 kg off the bulb was the solution.
WTF am I missing?
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lostmydetailsagain
Member
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You're missing that the certificate weight is not the same as the boat weight on a load cell and year-on-year ORC/IMS/ORCi varies allowances/assumptions with regards to kit on board and other calculations to go from measured weight to rated weight.
It is possible that for the same hull offset file and the same overhang measurements and the same flotation (draught) measurement the formulae get a slightly different calculated displacement.
Goodvibes
under the southern cross I stand ...
- 2,303
- 806
That does not explain ...
"I felt we were rated very high for a 2011 boat, and although 12 years old since build, we had one of the highest ratings. So we weighed the boat, and discovered that it was heavier than thought. We went to J/V and they said, well, you should take a couple of hundred kilos out of the bulb."
When it had been weighed several times recently.
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sailman
Super Anarchist
A 1% tolerance on draft? Are they eye balling these measurements?
Hmm is the weight recorded for shure messured by a loadcell...
Normal ORC flotation tests are using just a band to figure out gunwale hight over waterline for weight calculation. Depending on "sink / kg" in the cert and some other factors quite a big tollerance even if watertemp and probably salinity is recordet today (other than in the good old SORC times where "all boats where messured in Miami.." ;O))
Normal ORC flotation tests are using just a band to figure out gunwale hight over waterline for weight calculation. Depending on "sink / kg" in the cert and some other factors quite a big tollerance even if watertemp and probably salinity is recordet today (other than in the good old SORC times where "all boats where messured in Miami.." ;O))
lostmydetailsagain
Member
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Without knowledge of the exact situation:
it is not the measurer who forwards the results the owner has to. So (again not specific to this case but as an example)
- Boat weighed when new (for class)
- Only floatation checks since but "weight" on certificate is calculated not measured which is why it might change year-on-year
- hmm lets check our rating because it feels wrong
- check sails (for both ORCi and IRC, do this couple times per year/season as standard)
- check weight (for both ORCi and IRC)
- check stability (only for ORCi, not IRC)
- Oh boy, boat is heavy. Lets ask the YD for their opinion before next event
- Ah, okay, go back to original displacement but with less bulb weight
- Weigh again and submit those measurements in time for next event
In this case it sounds as if the weighing of the boat prior to modifying the bulb was like 7150kg. Then modified. The weighed again at 69##kg. So submitted weights to RA would have been the original weight (when new) and then superseded by the numbers from the weighing after modifications. Otherwise, we would have seen multiple certificates close together end of '22.
Again, I have no link to this specific situation or inside knowledge of the Australian 52s but have been involved in running optimizations enough to know that you don't just submit every single measurement you get done by an official measurer (who also doesn't care if you're using it for submission or just checking your own compliance).
Ignore ORC displacement slight changes, you will never get the same results twice from hull scans and measuring freeboards from loosely defined points.
To me the question needs to be, was the measurement data of the last measurement accurate? If there is evidence a mistake was made, for any reason, it might be sensible to re measure. But if the only argument is “I don’t like it and my head hurts” then I suggest Mr Beale or others ask the owner to get it remeasured and stump up the cash to cover all costs. If it shows a mistake, owner reimburses them and gets a new rating from now on. No protest at event so no adjustment. If data remains in tolerances, owner gets to give all a smug look and Mr Beale can get to explain to Mrs Beale why they are taking a vacation in a tent this year after the holiday fund was spent on crane hire.
To me the question needs to be, was the measurement data of the last measurement accurate? If there is evidence a mistake was made, for any reason, it might be sensible to re measure. But if the only argument is “I don’t like it and my head hurts” then I suggest Mr Beale or others ask the owner to get it remeasured and stump up the cash to cover all costs. If it shows a mistake, owner reimburses them and gets a new rating from now on. No protest at event so no adjustment. If data remains in tolerances, owner gets to give all a smug look and Mr Beale can get to explain to Mrs Beale why they are taking a vacation in a tent this year after the holiday fund was spent on crane hire.
IRC penalises boats for being light and also penalises boats for having heavy bulbs. If you're certificate says you're 69xxkg but your boat is actually 71xxkg then you're carrying a penalty in your rating that you don't need. If you had the boat reweighed and discovered this you could rerate the boat at the higher displacement and shave a bit off your handicap. Alternatively, you could make your boat weigh 69xxkg by removing weight from the bulb which would also shave some points off your handicap. If you were trying to win a downwind race the latter is helpful.
