Buying a used J70? (Please convince me not too)

[EYESAILOR]

Agree on Melges 24. Its an enduring classic sport boat.  We demoed and contemplated the Melges 20 which is also a nice boat.. but we perceived that as a racing scene very dominated by pros.  We are a family and friends group who can do well against other friends but we all have jobs and careers so we cant match the time on the water skills of full time sailors. Its fine. As you mentioned, it is always good to get advice......but remember a paid pro is not being paid to share his advice with other boats. If a pro brings a tuning edge to a boat, the owner who paid him will understandably get a bit snotty if the pro shares that advice with boats who didnt pay for the advice.  That said, we found that some owners in the J70 class were very happy to share their wisdom.  Sailmakers were also a great help.

I do think that critical mass and a vibrancy to the class is important if you enjoy OD racing. It was why the J24 was a lot of fun in its day and why the J70 is a good choice today.  J Boats do a great job in building critical mass.

Interesting that you had a Viper in the early days. If we had gone a different direction, I think it might have been that boat. As a helm, it was a boat I liked a lot. It had "passion".

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a perfect boat. There is always a bit of compromise. The best compromise for OD racing is a fun group of people and an active thriving class. The J70 was a good choice for us for our needs at the time.. 

 

[Mr. Squirrel]

It should be noted that the J/70 class has really tried hard to reward amateur teams with corinthian awards and even the Corinthian North Americans event (we sailed in 2016 at Eastport and are doing Fort Worth this year).  The Quantum Winter Series is a great event.  Lots of boats, great R/C work, and the club does an exceptional job of running the event.  Charleston will be the biggest event this year other than maybe the Worlds in Marblehead.

All of that said, I dont know how long the class can support the fully pro'd up teams.

Oh and the link for the J/70 lease - https://docklinecapital.com/

MS

 

[RockHead]

The Viper Class takes a sort of unique approach to pro sailors. They're welcome to sail, but you can't pay them. So you see guys like Zeke Horowitz (2017 Viper World Champ) racing for North, and Brad Boston racing for Doyle-Boston (many time Viper NA Champ), but they're racing with their mates for fun, as well as for the glory and bragging/selling rights for their sails. So they are VERY open with set-up, tuning and strategic advice. More like the old days of the J/24. This weekend at Annapolis NOOD, Zeke led a post-race debrief along with Jackson Benvenuto (also North, 2017 Viper NA Champ) for the Viper fleet, even though they were racing J/22s that day. They put the top 3 skippers up and questioned them about set-up and speed, adding in their experience. You also see pros like Geoff Ewenson sailing with his wife, though she won without him as he was off being paid to race on a Pac52.

I'm a Cat 3 because I sail with people I've sold Vipers to. I sailed with my 18 y.o. daughter in Annapolis and a recently retired Navy commander who owned a Viper in 1997 and wants back in now. He hadn't been on a sailboat in 15 years. We had a blast as he shook the rust off. Stamped our authority on 8th place! (of 9). LOL But we may soon be bumping the Annapolis fleet up to 12 boats from 9, which will be a tipping point we expect. One of those switching from the J/70 fleet, and one from 5o5.

It's all about what you're looking for in a Class, it's as much about the people and the culture as the boat. Though the boat should be fun to sail, even when you're coming in next to last!

 

[EYESAILOR]

If you think the sailmaker teams are not paid to race, then you must be on medical marijuana.

When North Sails entered a team in the J24 class, they were employees paid to be there. When they were at J70 regattas they were paid to be there. Sorry, but I bet they are not on unpaid vacation time when they are at Viper regattas. 

Nothing wrong with that. But I don't see the distinction with sailmaker teams at J70 regattas. They are there to sell sails. They give helpful de briefs and they also do that in the J70 class. It's their job and it sells sails.

You wax nostalgic about the J24 days, but all the major J24 regattas were won by sailmaking teams doing their job. 

Sounds like the sailmakers win their fair share of Viper regattas. 

 

[wpbeardsley]

The sailmakers are beatable with all amateur teams.  We are Exhibit A on that from last weekend.  

I don't care if sailmakers are there as part of their job.  If they have pro friends on the boat, they aren't being paid because they can't be under class rules.  Vipers have a very different culture on that end. 

There are a lot of reasons we sail Vipers and not J70s.  Vipers are more fun to sail (and I hate reading about how a J70 is "more sedate" - the Viper is not a hard boat to sail, and there is significantly harder tuning involved to get up to speed in a J70 than a Viper.  The Viper is an easy boat to sail well and it's not a scary boat to sail.  20 knots of wind is 20 knots of wind no matter what class you're sailing in.  

The biggest issue for us in not getting a J70 is cost and ease of transport.  I sail J70s with friends from time to time.  The quality of the racing is fine, but even for local stuff it's become a very expensive boat to prepare and campaign.  Apparently there is now unlimited hull and foil fairing after years of debate over bottom prep, bottom paint, etc.  No holds barred now - that's an expensive speedshop job, and you'll have to do it if you want to compete.  No hull or rudder fairing involved in Vipers, and only very limited keel fairing that it seems like most boats have yet to do.  Only one set of sails allowed per year in Vipers.  No limits in 70s.  My friends who are running mostly regional campaigns are still getting 2 or more sets per year to stay competitive.  They also need to own a truck or similarly beefy car to move the boat around.  I tow my Viper with a Subaru Outback, which wouldn't be able to tow a J70.  

None of this involves ripping on the people or the competition - there are good people and fast sailors in both classes, but the Vipers have managed their class rules much better over the years to create a game that I want to play, whereas the 70s have not.  

 

[EYESAILOR]

Hi WPB,

We owned a J70.  We had a great time with it and made a lot of friends.   You correctly identify some of the reasons why it was not hard to move on.  I think you can read that between the lines in some of my previous posts. But I dont want to diminish that we had a lot of fun and have no regrets.

I have also demoed a Viper, very early on (at the Stonnington demo), soon after Rondar relaunched the class. I loved the feel of driving the Viper. IMHO, it is still the most pleasing boat in its category to sail.  Eventually, we went a different direction because I like to sail with my husband and he wanted something with a hood on top!  I have been on the Viper twice since my original demo and it remains a thrilling boat that is remarkably easy and comfortable to sail.  As a class , you have done a lot of things right. Including incidentally, I see women helms in the results and a lot of women crewing.

My last post was really just calling BS on the Rondar rep when he intimated that sailmakers were unpaid at Viper regattas...there for fun and ...somehow playing a different role than they do at J70 regattas.  Hey, prove me wrong....I look forward to reading about Zeke H crewing with his good mate on a  back of the fleet Viper with Doyle Sails     Maybe I am sensitive after seeing what unfolded in the J70 class. You have a great culture in the Viper class. Be careful to protect that culture as more sailmakers start appearing. 

If sailmakers are there for the fun and to help encourage/coach others, and not to market sails by winning the regattas...then you should ask them if they want to draw straws to see which boats they sail on. When I suggested that in the J70 class, it went down like a lead balloon.

 

[wpbeardsley]

Eye,

I'm not sure that's a fair ask for any sailmaker to sail on a boat with sails he didn't have a hand in making/selling/designing.  The drawing straws idea is creative, but I would never want to put those guys in that position where they end up looking at other sails and critiquing the design vs. just helping an existing person get more out of their existing sails.  The North and Doyle guys in Vipers have been very generous in giving clinics though and don't discriminate with video / photo / other analysis based on labels on cloth.  And I've definitely seen folks from North, Doyle and Ullman sail on boats they don't own that are not at the front of the fleet, but they are at least using their sails, and the owners aren't paying them to be there - just depends if it fits into their schedule and if you ask nicely.  I've been pleasantly surprised over the years how if you just ask a sailmaker with enough lead time if they want to sail with you to help you get up to speed, how often they say yes, even if you're not a big customer.  AFAIK, there are only two sailmakers in the Viper class that own boats and there are more than two guys from North, Doyle, Ullman, Quantum, etc. who are playing in Vipers, so good for them for being involved.  

Anyway, a digression.  I'm happy to have pros in the game when they are helping others and improving everyone's game, without increasing the cost to compete, regardless of what Class they're in, and I'm grateful that some sailmakers have been generous in supporting the Viper Class in particular - they've done a ton to help me improve over the past 8 years.  

 

[Mr. Squirrel]

The biggest issue for us in not getting a J70 is cost and ease of transport.  I sail J70s with friends from time to time.  The quality of the racing is fine, but even for local stuff it's become a very expensive boat to prepare and campaign.  Apparently there is now unlimited hull and foil fairing after years of debate over bottom prep, bottom paint, etc.  No holds barred now - that's an expensive speedshop job, and you'll have to do it if you want to compete.  No hull or rudder fairing involved in Vipers, and only very limited keel fairing that it seems like most boats have yet to do.  Only one set of sails allowed per year in Vipers.  No limits in 70s.  My friends who are running mostly regional campaigns are still getting 2 or more sets per year to stay competitive.  They also need to own a truck or similarly beefy car to move the boat around.  I tow my Viper with a Subaru Outback, which wouldn't be able to tow a J70.  

None of this involves ripping on the people or the competition - there are good people and fast sailors in both classes, but the Vipers have managed their class rules much better over the years to create a game that I want to play, whereas the 70s have not.  

Dont let the truth get in the way of bashing the boat.  You like the Viper.  Fine.  Say that and move along.  The J/70 class rules are VERY specific about what can and can not be done to the bottom and keel of a J/70, and I can assure you it is far from unlimited.  For someone who rarely sails on a J/70 you sure seem to know an awful lot about them.  I towed ours to Florida with a Honda Pilot.  One of the other local boats did Detroit to Miami and back with a Ford Explorer.  Would I tow a J/70 with an Outback, probably not, but it is rated for 2700 lbs and a J/70 on a triad trailer is less than 2500.

MS

 

[Inperpetuity]

The VX One ticks your boxes and is faster than the J/70. 19 feet and super easy to transport. Amazing sailing with 1 - 3. 

 

[Schoonerman]

VARAN....the J/70 fleet still has legs and will have a 2nd wave of new teams on them in the coming years.  The used boat market is pretty robust (as is happens when a metric shitload of new boats get sold) and you can find well sorted boats for around $40K (not gonna find a gp program boat there though). Lot's of people are in the second wave (used boat) market.  It's a fun boat with a LOT of great sailors campaigning them.  It's well built (sailed loads of them in nuking breeze without failure), lots of used sails in GREAT shape out there and a solid stream of sailors who know the boat very well! You know the pitfalls with an open class so grab one and go sail the shit out of it!  

 

[sushi]

I've been struggling 

Out of the blue, some regular racers in our area are moving to J70s. Maybe it's time to give up the J24  h34r: . Our local Melges fleet is gone, same with the U20. The FE23 was a sweet sailing boat, but sticky in summer's fickle light winds. I like the narrowness of the 70, but the club foot keel and winches make me want to vomit.

That being said, y'all got any measured, class legal ones for sale? 

I know.. Move it to JA, it is not a sportie. Fuck it.

I’m struggling with the same, should I buy one of these damn J70’s? Our local J22 fleet is extremely strong, and after years of trying to hold together Viper and VX one fleets I decided to follow the herd and go 22 (great competition but uncomfortable).  

I had an opportunity to use a 70 for two recent regattas.  Liked the boat a lot more than I thought I would.   It certainly is not a viper / VX, but it’s a lot more comfortable and fun than a 22.   

If I were in your shoes, with the 24 – I’d jump all over a 70. 

Edit:   holler at the Jboats southwest guy.  He has two new boats in stock and may have at least one used boat.   

 

[Varan]

Thanks for the feedback.

Sailed the 70 a few times this past summer and was underwhelmed, about as much as the boat is underpowered. She seems to scream for more power.

Our local fleet also seems to have stalled. One is for sale. One occassionally races PHRF with our club. Another ocassional races PHRF with another club. The price of entry is still too much for many locals.

Meanwhile, our 24 fleet is growing and our club will hosting our district championships again in 2019, so for me, it looks like another year J24 sailing  h34r:

 

[sushi]

Yup.  Great concept, ruined by all the pricks from big boats and daddy warbuck$ jumping into the class and making it the estate of millionaires to compete.  The J24 is now enjoying it's 4th generation of owners, all low budget Corithians, looking for a weekend buzz and not much more.  Skip the 70 and go straight Back to the Future J22 or J24.

that mean your dumping your orphan m24 program so you can follow your own advice?