Buying an old moth, a Bladerider. Mistake or not?

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
That nut needs to be tight and needs to prevent any rotation between the linked components. Where you lock it up changes the rake of the wand at normal ride height. I think I used to have it at one extreme. Which ever end makes the wand well forward when at normal height (flap neutral). If yours will not lock add some washers under the nut and re tighten it.

The wand length adjuster should work smoothly. Check the sliding part for sand, and make sure the line does not go around anything rough and is not twisted around anything else.
 
That nut needs to be tight and needs to prevent any rotation between the linked components. Where you lock it up changes the rake of the wand at normal ride height. I think I used to have it at one extreme. Which ever end makes the wand well forward when at normal height (flap neutral). If yours will not lock add some washers under the nut and re tighten it.

The wand length adjuster should work smoothly. Check the sliding part for sand, and make sure the line does not go around anything rough and is not twisted around anything else.
Thanks Phil. That should be an easy adjustment and not an expensive one!

The wand goes up and down smoothly by hand, just with the system the boat came with there is so much friction in the lines it’s not easy. I re-ran all the lines to it and it’s just a tough spot to run things to.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
Use a thinner slippery line for the wand and put some knobs on it where you grab it. One endless loop works best. Do not make it tight.
 
Two related but separate carbon fix questions. I’m not sailing for 2 weeks is I have time to fix them correctly I think. I’d like to fix them myself.

First is my main foil. I leaned it against the boat before putting in the hull with out the cover on. It fell. Most of the other nics were super small and a bit of wet sanding with 400 and they smoothed out. This big spot where it hit a rock or something hard is a much bigger issue. What’s the correct repair? Cut out the bad carbon, fill it back in with carbon or cloth or filler?

Second is my backup small foil, came with the boat. Someone sanded through the trailing edge of the flap. I tried to build it up with epoxy, rookie mistake didn’t work. What’s the fix? The tip is fine, about 4-6cm in from the tip the flap is sanded through for about 15cm. The bottom layer of carbon is sanded through. Should I mix up some epoxy, mix in some high density filler and fair it out? Should I cut out the section and epoxy in a new piece of flat epoxy then fair it to the semi correct shape?
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Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
1. The CB trailing edge damage needs to be fixed properly. Its a very high stress location, just below the hull. Its likely that the trailing edge bond is broken and the edge is split. This allows the board to twist which will make flying feel wobbly and very disconcerting. Also water will leak in.
If so you need to prise it open with a hacksaw blade at each end of the split, then with another blade remove as much of the inner foam as you can without going as far forward as the pushrod tube. You need to expose and clean maybe 10mm of internal carbon surfaces along the length of the split. When thats done tape up the whole CB so you do not get epoxy all over it. With the crack prised open, push in as much epoxy/fibre glue miix as you can, then remove the spacers and close the gap. Clamp it between two pieces of straight timber. A lot of excess glue will ooze out, but you should fix the joint and prevent it leaking. When cured just sand it excess to the correct shape.
2. Foil/flap. Check the internal white stuff where its exposed by the removed carbon. If its soft its foam filler and the repair is a bit like the above, remove the foam and replace with epoxy glue mix. If its hard, it is probably the glue mix used in construction and you do not need to do anything.

Owning a moth is continual work in maintenance and upgrades, nature of the highly developed beast.
 
Sail question: My sail is starting to show some wear and tear and I probably am going to replace it this winter. I do not have a kinked boom and my mast is 5300mm tall. I am hooked and probably 2-5 years from upgrading to a faster boat, like a Exocet or Bieker. I would prefer to save money and put it towards a new boat instead of taking my Mach 2.2 and converting it to a 2.6 in order to upgrade to a 5000/5100mm mast and deck sweeper main, but Im not afraid of some fiberglass work.

What are the options for a new sail for my Mach 2 given what I listed above. KA, Lennon, North, and Doyle are the only sail makers I can find that make Moth sails. What are the pros and cons of each sail makers Moth options? Appears that North has the fastest sails, but I would be looking at the VI-8 sail I believe? Does Doyle have a sail for a 5300mm mast and is it really half the weight of a North sail? I dont know anything about KA or Lennon sails, I have not been exposed to them, do they make good sails? Does anyone make deck sweepers for 5300mm masts with out kinked booms and would it make sense to check that out?


At this point in with my skill level with the boat, Id prefer to just get a new sail over making modifications to the boat. Being 225lbs/102kg, Im not afraid of the taller mast becuase I have leverage when hiking. Im not 100% against something like kinking my boom, but not sure its worth it if the plan is to flip the boat at the end of next year. I also have a leak(maybe leaks) in the hull and fixing those is my major project for the boat for the winter.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
You should be able to find some used sails without the deck sweeper skirt to suit your rig. Just scan the moth classifieds and FB pages, they come up occasionally. All the newer production sails are deck sweepers designed for shorter masts and bent booms. You could use a deck decksweeper sail on your long mast but the foot and the back of the boom would be 300mm higher. Probably make the boat a bit harder to sail.

Moth sails have a maximum luff length of 5.185m (17ft), that is why the deck sweepers have shorter masts.

You can shorten your mast and stays to suit a newer sail, you can also cut down the stump to just above the compression struts. I would wait until you have the sail as the hound height varies quite a bit. You may need to cut some off both the top and bottom. If you cut the bottom you need to wrap with carbon the new bottom so it does not split. Bending the boom is a bit more of an issue, its a very high stress area to rebuild. If the boom is CST or Mach2 they both sell an insert/joiner.

All the listed sailmakers make good sails, Doyle and KA are probably lighter but everyone is working on lighter sails. Carbon battens save more weight than lighter sail material. There are probably more KA and Lennon pre-deck sweepers about and available or just gathering dust in someone's shed. Ask the moth sailors you know, everyone has obsolete gear which is often had little use. Ideal for your purposes.
 
Thanks Phil. I have been watching the moth classified and FB pages and once in a while see a sail that comes up. Ill ask my buddies and when its time to pull the trigger post an ISO thread.

Ill add that 17ft/5.185m number to my notes. Good to know. The max luff length and max 8.25m2 sail area are the only limited factors in how a sail is shaped?

I dont really want to use a deck sweeper with my current rig, the physics on the benefits of a deck sweeper dont work if the foot isnt at the deck level and having the entire sail 300mm too high wouldnt work. The idea of shortening my mast might work, hun, that would be an interesting project and let me next winter (not this winter) upgrade to the 2.6 wings and a bowsprit. The boom is oval, I think it is a Mach 2 boom, Ill reach out to them about the process if I decide to go that way. It would be really nice to have a bit extra room to get under the boom if I shorten the mast and stump.

Ill ask around about use non-deck sweeper sails, but we are finding out that used equipment is just starting to get scares for Mach 2 where I'm sailing. Good to know about carbon battens, Ill keep an eye out for that.
 

17mika

Anarchist
959
230
Milan, Italy
hi!

with your boat I would just get a used sail for your 530/535 mast, and save money for a new ship if /when you decide to upgrade. to get a new ds sail for your boat you would need do what phil said, but it involves some work and some margine of error.
for instance for my first ds, i cut my mast, but I cut too much of the top, so the mast ended up too stiff at the top. the I had to sand a shitload of uni from the topmast and relaminate some rwill at 45 to cover. shitload of work and still mast was not that good in the end.

re sails, I have always been a freat fan on lennons, but that is more personal prefernece. most sail producers are good I think.
 
Thanks again for all the help PhilS, 17mika, Im going to keep sailing my boat until I can get a Bieker. It makes more sense to keep saving for a new boat instead of upgrading what I have.

Spent last weekend at SailNewport and had a blast. Wind picked up to 15-20 every day and I was able to just rip around. My ride height issue was finally solved. I didnt have enough tension in the bungies that pull the wand down/forward so the flap on my main foil was always lagging behind what I wanted it to do. As soon as I tightened it up (and since replaced/upgraded the bungie that pulls the wand forward) I was able to pop up on the foils and I flew across the bay with ease. Well except I now understand what I need my fitness level to be at for the Moth. It was a ton of fun. I thought I was fundamentally doing something wrong while sailing and it was getting frustrating, nope, I needed to replace the bungie pulling the wand forward.

I just want to give another huge shout out to the Moth sailors at SailNewport, they are some of the best sailors in the world (their resumes are unmatched) and could have huge egos, but instead have been willing to take time to help me figure out how to sail a moth. Sailors help sailors get better so we can together push eachother. These guys and girls are the epitome of what sailing should be.
 
First night of controlled foiling. Perfect 10-15 out of the North (very rare direction for Buffalo, NY). I was foiling about 6 inch off the water, in control, a drastically different experience from what the boat was. Next time I’m going to work on adjusting ride height to try to be higher so I can heel more to windward. I did have a bit of time with windward heel, but it was rare. Definitely something to work on!

I’m so hooked.
 
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Im not fit enough yet to be able to really work the boat hard for long periods of time (yet!), so I have been inviting friends out sailing. The head of junior sailing at the Buffalo Yacht Club has been awesome to let us borrow a rib if they are not using it. Last night two friends came out and gave foiling a shot. I think both had fun, and are up for trying again soon. Im amazed at now comfortable I have gotten in the boat low riding and foiling, and am excited to get both of you there!

If anyone else is around Buffalo, NY and wants to give foiling a shot, Im pretty easy to find on here, FB and instagram, and when we get some wind again we will try to get you out.


PhilS, I am now foiling in control, but only about 6in out of the water. To ride higher, when the wand is all the way up (horizontal where it is when low riding) I want more flap down on the main horizontal, and less flap up when the wand is all the way down ( vertical when I get too high)?
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
Im not fit enough yet to be able to really work the boat hard for long periods of time (yet!), so I have been inviting friends out sailing. The head of junior sailing at the Buffalo Yacht Club has been awesome to let us borrow a rib if they are not using it. Last night two friends came out and gave foiling a shot. I think both had fun, and are up for trying again soon. Im amazed at now comfortable I have gotten in the boat low riding and foiling, and am excited to get both of you there!

If anyone else is around Buffalo, NY and wants to give foiling a shot, Im pretty easy to find on here, FB and instagram, and when we get some wind again we will try to get you out.


PhilS, I am now foiling in control, but only about 6in out of the water. To ride higher, when the wand is all the way up (horizontal where it is when low riding) I want more flap down on the main horizontal, and less flap up when the wand is all the way down ( vertical when I get too high)?
correct, Lengthen pushrod about 5mm at a time and make sure the wand is at maximum length.
 
Anyone know the longest and shortest length that a wand should be from the axle to the bottom of the cup for a Mach 2.2? I broke mine, and rebuilt it, and now want to check the length before fairing it down. I should of measured it before repairing it, but I didnt. Oops.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
The old Mach2 wand in my shed is 1.4m long. I like to fly safe and low when it gets rough so I used to shorten it by up to 400mm.
 

Doug Halsey

Member
341
100
The old Mach2 wand in my shed is 1.4m long. I like to fly safe and low when it gets rough so I used to shorten it by up to 400mm.
Just to be totally clear: You're saying that you shorten it while sailing (using your controls), not that you cut it by that much. Right?
 

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