Buying an old moth, a Bladerider. Mistake or not?

Doug Halsey

Member
341
100
Somebody at our club recently gave me a collection of old wands that came with an older Mach2 he bought. Measuring those (plus my own), the longest one (measuring like the red line below) was 1.32m.
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Doug, thanks! Could you take 3 more measurments for me? Id like to know the length from the bottom of the cup to the bend (maybe estimate the middle of the bend?), then from the bend to the shortest the wand can be adjusted to, and the bend to the longest the wand can be adjusted to? I didnt take those measurements before fixing mine after breaking it and should of. I lost a few cm when i tapered the break to rebuild it.

Im going to get a bowsprit and install it over the winter, but I cant do it right now, and am trying to get the boat through the rest of the summer and fall before she goes under the knife (grinder) this winter.
 
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My wand is 129cm from the bottom of the cup to the top, this is after the repair. I’m trying to figure out if it’s long enough to work. I’m not sure I can sand/fair down, the repair too much, guess I’ll find out.
 

Doug Halsey

Member
341
100
Doug, thanks! Could you take 3 more measurments for me? Id like to know the length from the bottom of the cup to the bend (maybe estimate the middle of the bend?), then from the bend to the shortest the wand can be adjusted to, and the bend to the longest the wand can be adjusted to? I didnt take those measurements before fixing mine after breaking it and should of. I lost a few cm when i tapered the break to rebuild it.

Im going to get a bowsprit and install it over the winter, but I cant do it right now, and am trying to get the boat through the rest of the summer and fall before she goes under the knife (grinder) this winter.
My wand is 70cm from the bottom of the cup to the middle of the bend. (And then 72cm to the top)

When it's adjusted to its longest, the distance from the middle of the bend to the bottom of the fitting (ie-the distance between the red lines in the photo) is 64cm. (This leaves about 2.5cm sticking out the top of the fitting for tying the control line.)

When it's adjusted to its shortest, the 64cm distance reduces to 42. (This distance could be a fair amount larger or smaller if the control lines were tied differently.)


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Doug Halsey

Member
341
100
"My wand is 129cm from the bottom of the cup to the top, this is after the repair. I’m trying to figure out if it’s long enough to work. I’m not sure I can sand/fair down, the repair too much, guess I’ll find out."

My wand is 142 cm (13 cm longer than yours) and I almost always use the full length of it - sailing in flat water & moderate winds. I think the boat would still be flying if I shortened it by 13cm, but it would be very low.
 
Thanks Doug. I’m going to sand the repair down so I can get as much adjustment as possible. Doubt I’ll get 22cm, but I’ll get as close as I can. I was flying really high last time out with the wand in its currently repaired form. I must of had too much ride height on, easy fix. Forecast looks good for Monday, I’ll be back out then.

Since I broke the wand, it gets stuck in the up (horizontal) position if the gearing (part the wand attaches to that connects to the rod that goes to the top of the centerboard) in front of the boat is too high or too low. Could that be the wand is too short so it can rotate further then it should be allowed? I did tighten the bungee that pulls the wand forward even more, could that be too tight now?
"My wand is 129cm from the bottom of the cup to the top, this is after the repair. I’m trying to figure out if it’s long enough to work. I’m not sure I can sand/fair down, the repair too much, guess I’ll find out."

My wand is 142 cm (13 cm longer than yours) and I almost always use the full length of it - sailing in flat water & moderate winds. I think the boat would still be flying if I shortened it by 13cm, but it would be very low.
 
From the bottom of the cup to the middle of the bend is 78cm, and the middle of the bend to the top is 51cm.

What’s super interesting is I only lost about 6cm with the repair, where I had to over bevel and over lap it. It still put my original wand a bit shorter then both of yours. I’m short about 3-4cm from having the same range of wand length as both of your wands. I laid it out on a piece of scrap wood to see where I was really at.

I’ll get another wand piece from KA and rebuild this one to be what ever AMac says is correct. Well at least I can still sail!

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The Bend of Doug’s wand and my wand are off by 8cm. Not sure if this is by design, if one of us have a later version where it was changed, or if it is due to Bora and George P trying to optimize George’s old boat (aka my boat) at some point. I based the short and long numbers of my wand off Doug’s wand middle, not my middle.



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Doug Halsey

Member
341
100
In about 2016, Mach2 changed the length of the vertical foils - Mach2.3 being 9cm deeper than the earlier ones.

My Mach2.3 forward vertical measures about 136cm from the top of the horizontal foil to the very top of the vertical.

You probably have the shorter verticals, which probably had shorter wands to go with them.
 

17mika

Anarchist
959
230
Milan, Italy
on my rocket I have 125-100 as range, given my setup of continuous line (no bungee) more than 25cm donnot get practical.

on mach2, which has longer vertical foils something like 140-110 or 135-105 makes sense, assuming a 30cm range.

I agree with phil than what matters is the capability to shorten in fresh conditions, at least to 110 (100 on a mach is like supersafe)
 
In about 2016, Mach2 changed the length of the vertical foils - Mach2.3 being 9cm deeper than the earlier ones.

My Mach2.3 forward vertical measures about 136cm from the top of the horizontal foil to the very top of the vertical.

You probably have the shorter verticals, which probably had shorter wands to go with them.
The boat came with a new vertical, I’ll measure it. So I should try to get the wand to be the same length as the vertical? If I’m reading that correct? Or slightly shorter? My If this is in one of the Mach 2 rebuild blogs, direct me there and I’ll read up.

Other interesting thing is the wand is getting stuck in this position. If I adjust the gearing to be quicker it does not get stuck, but don’t I want the full range of gearing?
 
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The wand is sticking if the forward mechanism is wound too far down, is that a comment thing or because my wand is too short so it can over rotate?

My forward vertical is 133cm from top of the front foil to the top of the foil. Weird it’s a bit shorter then the 2.3s 136cm. It was brand new when I bought the boat, which makes it even more confusing.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
Where is the May stick and bungee? That SS post poking forward from the wand mount should have a 125mm SS tube on it with a bungee stretched back to the wing. This is what pulls the wand down to the water and pulls the flap up when you are too high.

I think you have the locking bolt set with the wand too far forward. AMAC used to say that the forward end pin on the pushrod toggle should be on the line between the wand axle and the lower end of the wand. Later thinking was that the pin should be vertically below the axle when the wand tip was 45deg back from vertical. This being where maximum gearing happens and at normal wand position for stable flight.

My wand could be retracted maybe 300mm, I like safe and low, hate crashing.
 
Where is the May stick and bungee? That SS post poking forward from the wand mount should have a 125mm SS tube on it with a bungee stretched back to the wing. This is what pulls the wand down to the water and pulls the flap up when you are too high.

I think you have the locking bolt set with the wand too far forward. AMAC used to say that the forward end pin on the pushrod toggle should be on the line between the wand axle and the lower end of the wand. Later thinking was that the pin should be vertically below the axle when the wand tip was 45deg back from vertical. This being where maximum gearing happens and at normal wand position for stable flight.

My wand could be retracted maybe 300mm, I like safe and low, hate crashing.


I have never had a SS tube on the SS post sticking up from the wand mount. George Peet rigged a bungee system that connects to the ride height adjuster barrel and the bulkhead the mast step tube goes into. Ill see if that tube is in my box of spares, or if I can get a new tube to mount on there.

I asked a few pages about about that locking nut and where it should be. I guess I dont totally understand. Are you saying the bottom of the cup and the threaded rod the locking nut is connected to should be in line? Or when the wand tip is back 45 degrees from the vertical, the pin is forward (towards the bow) for the axle?

The piece to fix my wand correctly cleared customs and should be to me early next week. Ill get it epoxied on and will have a full length working wand again. Im so close to ordering the bowsprit system. This tower gearing angle mechanism is getting beyond annoying.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
Bungee in cockpit pulling bellcrank forward is a valid, more modern option. It needs a strong multi strand bungee as the lever arm is usually shorter. And make sure its still under good tension when the bell crank is pulled fully forward.

Wand rake adjuster. The 3 points are the wand tip, the main axle shaft, and the 3mm pin connection the pushrod toggle and the bronze connector which rides up and down the rate adjuster.

In your photo the axle and 3mm pin appear to be in a line parallel with the top of the wand, so the wand tip will be aft of that line. This would mean that your max gearing will occur when the wand is aft of 45deg, good for take off but dodgy when flying high as control response softens with wand forward. I would adjust the wand further forward.
 
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Is this worth trying to save? It’s a spare that came with the boat. I measured it and it’s a Mach 2.0, the shortest of the Mach 2 front foils. The carbon work scares me a bit because I’ll need to vaccine bag it. I’m more worried about getting it to the correct shape.
 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,604
233
Sydney
It can be fixed, but not easily.

Many people grind off the carbon up maybe 100mm and lay up new carbon. Its not often successful because hand laid, low mod carbon and ambient temp resin is no where near as strong as the prepreg/baked original laminate. Its also hard to replicate the shape. The threaded helicoil also needs a stronger material to anchor to, they often pull out of soft repairs.

My best efforts involve inserting a stainless steel insert. I started with 5/16in bar about 6in long, with the bottom end drilled and tapped M6 for the foil bolt. Drilled out the foil from the bottom, roughened the bar and glued it in. Mostly worked OK but some got bent. So I switched to 10x35mm SS plate, again tapped M6 for the bolt. Tapered the top. Drilled out the stub and foil and glued it in. This usually destroys the damaged stub, so you need to remake the stub shape with carbon, but its only space filler, not structural as the SS takes all the load.

My best effort was making a longer/thinner bottom end starting with a damaged short M2.0 foil. I borrowed a M2.3 vertical, and made a mold of the bottom 400mm. I ground away the bottom end of the M2.0, tapering it down each side to a wedge, and so it fitted the top of the mold. I then layed up carbon in the mold, with the SS slab (which extended into the tapered end) and clamped the mold together with the top of the foil inserted. I set the length to match the M2.3 pushrod from the M2 shop. The SS takes the load, so the wet layup carbon works out OK. Heavier than a M2.3 or Swift but $4000 cheaper.

I still have two of these in use on my last foiler, although my foiling days are near an end as age and fitness is catching up with me.
 

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