C&C 66 for sale - how much cash would this burn as a couple's cruiser?

[inneedofadvice]

Why would a couple need or want 66' of boat to 'bump' around the Caribbean? What does 66' offer that 40-45' doesn't?

 

[hdra]

The problem is you could get by with a LOT less than that. Assuming you have your own mooring and the boat is as good as described, your initial two or three years might be diesel, beer, and ice. Then when something breaks, a sail rips, or whatever it is time. Maybe not lately, pandemic economy and all, but the airport always used to have "hot potato" airplanes that were cheap Aztecs or Barons that someone would get, fly the hell out of, and then sell before something broke. You got stuck with the hot potato when it had an expensive issue during your turn and then you realized the last 4 owners did not fix anything, it is all waiting for you

This boat may not be that, and doesn't look like it, but you really don't want to be the one using it up and trying to get out of it before it gets obvious. All that aside, 17 foot beam and 10 foot draft is an "Anti-Cruiser" everywhere between Sandy Hook and Puerto Rico.

Totally agree - that is how big boats like this end up rotting in tropical boatyards - people playing hot-potato and deferring maintenance on boats that are much bigger than they can afford to own!

The OP would probably be a lot better off getting a nice 45'er - the budget thing doesn't even bring into consideration the difficulties of handling and weight of everything on a boat this big. My wife and I can and have double-handed the 72'er, but we've decided we won't do it for further than about a 48 hour passage - too much risk if something goes wrong and you don't have enough hands on board to deal with it. We really prefer to have at least a 5 semi-competent folks on board if we're doing a short-handed delivery. We're pretty conservative, and there are plenty of people who do sail big heavy boats short handed, but they tend to either be crazy, well funded, or both.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Totally agree - that is how big boats like this end up rotting in tropical boatyards - people playing hot-potato and deferring maintenance on boats that are much bigger than they can afford to own!

The OP would probably be a lot better off getting a nice 45'er - the budget thing doesn't even bring into consideration the difficulties of handling and weight of everything on a boat this big. My wife and I can and have double-handed the 72'er, but we've decided we won't do it for further than about a 48 hour passage - too much risk if something goes wrong and you don't have enough hands on board to deal with it. We really prefer to have at least a 5 semi-competent folks on board if we're doing a short-handed delivery. We're pretty conservative, and there are plenty of people who do sail big heavy boats short handed, but they tend to either be crazy, well funded, or both.

Besides for all that, the C&C 44s have a nicer cruising layout. That boat is just odd for a cruiser and outdated as a racer.

 

[V21]

I remember walking out of a Caribbean chandlery with the bosses credit card one time. I went to buy a few spares, maintenance items, bits and bobs. Walked out having spent $13k and thinking how much of a small part of the whole show it was.

 

[Jim in Halifax]

"PHANTOM is an ocean sloop built by the Canadian shipyard Cuthbertson & Cassian in 1973. Established in 1969 by two designers, George Cuthbertson and George Cassian, the yard was distinguished by a series of design and construction techniques, many of which were innovative at the time of the company’s formation. PHANTOM was built using a balsa and fibreglass sandwich construction, although commonplace now, this was cutting edge technology at the time, and she was very carefully built. This method allowed the builder to decrease weight and increase the rigidity. Some previous examples, such as HELISARA (by Herbert Von Karajan) and GRAMPUS (by Angelo Rizzoli), were already famous for good results using the same technique."

I don't know about buying a fifty year-old balsa core hull...it is hard enough finding a thirty year-old Niagara 35 that hasn't got core damage and this is a helluva bigger hull. And who knew that a famous Austrian orchestral conductor was also a NA and boat-builder? Although I can believe he had it built FOR him...

 

[SemiSalt]

Big boats have divided rigs for good reasons.

 

[Israel Hands]

That is a lot of boat - I've been running a 72' with 18' beam, 96' rig, and 11' draft that weighs 43 tonnes empty for the last 10 years as a charter/sail training boat - it sails about 10-15K miles a year. Without hiring a crew, I think you'd be looking at a budget in the vicinity of 150-200K a year to keep this going and well maintained. You will probably want to hire a crew. The 72' boat is a full time job for two crew - when there aren't guests on board, we were working 5 days a week on the boat. It has relatively simple systems, and we generally hired contractors for things like rigging, welding, complicated AC electrical work, and bottom paint / yard work (depending on yard rules).

If you're not using the boat that much wear and tear may be lower, but depending on your skill level / enthusiasm for maintenance you may find yourself subcontracting out more maintenance - most folks I know who do own similar sized boats either are using them as charter boats and working full time or if they are fully yachtified hire out most of the maintenance so they can enjoy the sailing.

Hopefully you've been having as much fun at your work as those people on Below Decks Sailing

 

[Bryanjb]

Where to start.....
As others have mentioned, my wife and I, own and sail a C&C 61. We've owned the boat for 20 years, mostly in the Great Lakes but now in the Caribbean. 2024 we'll sail to Europe if we're able to negotiate a retirement visa from Portugal.

Costs: we seem to average about 1.5% of new replacement price. We figure new replacement to be about $2 million so annual maintenance is around $30k. Some years were more, some years were less. It depends on the work we're going to have done. Next year we'll have the hull and deck repainted and the rails removed, repaired, repainted and reinstalled. Hull and deck paint are about $12~$13k each, still waiting on the quote for the rails. Storage is about $650/month but we not generally out of the water for more then the months.

Sailing: minor jumps under 600 miles my wife and I don't take on crew, longer jumps we like 2 to 4 additional people. We find the boat very stable, easy to sail, easy to reef and comfortable while on passage. The main slab reefs and the jib and staysail are on roller furlers. Although it has a big rig it feels docile, maybe because it's a big powerful boat. We can and do sail it on and off anchor or a mooring ball, you get used to how far the boat will carry and the turning radius. Docking is a breeze with a bow thruster. Passaging over the past three years we average about 180 miles a day, upwind, downwind, light or heavy air. We tend to shut down the boat at night and power up during the day.

Overall: We love the boat, it's a fantastic sailing boat, strong as any boat can be, wonderful to live aboard and the space is fantastic. We wouldn't own a smaller boat.

Regarding the 66:. Phantom proved to not be as fast as the 61's. It's not as good a race boat but that's not why someone would buy it today, it'll be bought as a cruising boat. Would my wife and I cruise it, sure it wouldn't be much different then the 61. The size of the boat isn't much of a concern so much as how it's set up to be sailed and docked.

 

[Son of Hans]

To be clear, Grampus and Helisara were both 61's, the latter being commissioned by von Karajan at a somewhat later date than the launching of Phantom (the one and only 66). As I understood it, he wanted her berthed in Monaco for his annual 3-week summer vacation so he could go day sailing every day. The remaining 49 weeks of the year, the paid captain was free to do whatever he wanted with the boat.

I don't know about buying a fifty year-old balsa core hull...it is hard enough finding a thirty year-old Niagara 35 that hasn't got core damage and this is a helluva bigger hull. And who knew that a famous Austrian orchestral conductor was also a NA and boat-builder? Although I can believe he had it built FOR him...

 

[hdra]

Costs: we seem to average about 1.5% of new replacement price. We figure new replacement to be about $2 million so annual maintenance is around $30k. Some years were more, some years were less. It depends on the work we're going to have done. Next year we'll have the hull and deck repainted and the rails removed, repaired, repainted and reinstalled. Hull and deck paint are about $12~$13k each, still waiting on the quote for the rails. Storage is about $650/month but we not generally out of the water for more then the months.

I'm impressed with those costs - are those mostly up in the Great Lakes? We paid double that for hull paint only in Mexico on a 72' hull, would have had to pay at least double that again if we'd wanted it done in California. I can't remember the last time we've paid so little in storage, for either a boatyard or a marina, either in the Atlantic or Pacific. I guess the costs scaling to displacement does work when you get smaller too.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Where to start.....
As others have mentioned, my wife and I, own and sail a C&C 61. We've owned the boat for 20 years, mostly in the Great Lakes but now in the Caribbean. 2024 we'll sail to Europe if we're able to negotiate a retirement visa from Portugal.

Costs: we seem to average about 1.5% of new replacement price. We figure new replacement to be about $2 million so annual maintenance is around $30k. Some years were more, some years were less. It depends on the work we're going to have done. Next year we'll have the hull and deck repainted and the rails removed, repaired, repainted and reinstalled. Hull and deck paint are about $12~$13k each, still waiting on the quote for the rails. Storage is about $650/month but we not generally out of the water for more then the months.

Sailing: minor jumps under 600 miles my wife and I don't take on crew, longer jumps we like 2 to 4 additional people. We find the boat very stable, easy to sail, easy to reef and comfortable while on passage. The main slab reefs and the jib and staysail are on roller furlers. Although it has a big rig it feels docile, maybe because it's a big powerful boat. We can and do sail it on and off anchor or a mooring ball, you get used to how far the boat will carry and the turning radius. Docking is a breeze with a bow thruster. Passaging over the past three years we average about 180 miles a day, upwind, downwind, light or heavy air. We tend to shut down the boat at night and power up during the day.

Overall: We love the boat, it's a fantastic sailing boat, strong as any boat can be, wonderful to live aboard and the space is fantastic. We wouldn't own a smaller boat.

Regarding the 66:. Phantom proved to not be as fast as the 61's. It's not as good a race boat but that's not why someone would buy it today, it'll be bought as a cruising boat. Would my wife and I cruise it, sure it wouldn't be much different then the 61. The size of the boat isn't much of a concern so much as how it's set up to be sailed and docked.

Wow - WHERE is that paint shop? I don't think I could get my C&C 35 painted for that here!

 

[Jim in Halifax]

To be clear, Grampus and Helisara were both 61's, the latter being commissioned by von Karajan at a somewhat later date than the launching of Phantom (the one and only 66). As I understood it, he wanted her berthed in Monaco for his annual 3-week summer vacation so he could go day sailing every day. The remaining 49 weeks of the year, the paid captain was free to do whatever he wanted with the boat.

Shoulda used the purple irony font on the Von Karajan bit. Not very good ad copy in any case. And apparently got the build order wrong too.
Those were the glory days for paid captains...

 

[Bryanjb]

We're currently in Trinidad at Peakes. Prices last summer in Portland Maine we're higher, generally $75 to $100 per hour. The workmanship in Maine was fantastic and Maine Yacht Center was great to work with. We'll see how Peakes did this summer in Trinidad, I'll report back after seeing their touch up work.
We do a lot of our own work too, we're both engineers and enjoy maintaining the boat. We work pretty hard to try to keep the boat too a high level, well as high as you can with a fifty year old boat. LOL

 

[Bryanjb]

Indoor heated winter storage on the Great Lakes for us was about $7,000. I miss the Great Lakes but not the winters. Brrrr

 

[Findependent]

Where to start.....
As others have mentioned, my wife and I, own and sail a C&C 61. We've owned the boat for 20 years, mostly in the Great Lakes but now in the Caribbean. 2024 we'll sail to Europe if we're able to negotiate a retirement visa from Portugal.

Costs: we seem to average about 1.5% of new replacement price. We figure new replacement to be about $2 million so annual maintenance is around $30k. Some years were more, some years were less. It depends on the work we're going to have done. Next year we'll have the hull and deck repainted and the rails removed, repaired, repainted and reinstalled. Hull and deck paint are about $12~$13k each, still waiting on the quote for the rails. Storage is about $650/month but we not generally out of the water for more then the months.

Sailing: minor jumps under 600 miles my wife and I don't take on crew, longer jumps we like 2 to 4 additional people. We find the boat very stable, easy to sail, easy to reef and comfortable while on passage. The main slab reefs and the jib and staysail are on roller furlers. Although it has a big rig it feels docile, maybe because it's a big powerful boat. We can and do sail it on and off anchor or a mooring ball, you get used to how far the boat will carry and the turning radius. Docking is a breeze with a bow thruster. Passaging over the past three years we average about 180 miles a day, upwind, downwind, light or heavy air. We tend to shut down the boat at night and power up during the day.

Overall: We love the boat, it's a fantastic sailing boat, strong as any boat can be, wonderful to live aboard and the space is fantastic. We wouldn't own a smaller boat.

Regarding the 66:. Phantom proved to not be as fast as the 61's. It's not as good a race boat but that's not why someone would buy it today, it'll be bought as a cruising boat. Would my wife and I cruise it, sure it wouldn't be much different then the 61. The size of the boat isn't much of a concern so much as how it's set up to be sailed and docked.

Bryan,
Thanks for the info. I'm basing the premise of this thread on the fact that you've been successful with Joli. Naturally, this is completely speculative - for now. I was curious how many competent bodies you had on board for different situations. And how much "automation" you'd baked into the sail plan.

I have a good handle on the type of person, preparations and processes a boat the size of Phantom would need to run as a daily driver. Whether I am one of them is another question. I estimate Phantom would take $30K-$50K per year for general maintenance - across a 5-year average. Then add on monthly living expenses - variable dependent on personal tastes. Say $100K a year total.

Not sure how much to account for refitting, initial systems upgrades, etc. Was hoping that would be less than $100K if I handle the less specialized stuff myself. I saw how much prep you did to Joie before leaving Lake Erie.

10-foot draft on Phantom is a concern. I wasn't familiar with Phantom's sailing characteristics, and I'm surprised to hear the extra waterline didn't add a little speed. Thats an argument to pick up a 61 with less draft.

BTW... I've read the Joli blog front to back. Thanks for taking the time to document your efforts. I remember your boat well. It was docked next to our Ericson 46 at the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club when Steve Gagne owned it as Triumph... early 1980s.

anyway, I appreciate your response. I think Sorcery is laying in Turkey somewhere with a $100K for sale sign. Looking rough.
- and the 61 Ketch was for sale recently.

 

[sculpin]

Having sat on Joli 2 years ago while enjoying a beer, I can attest that the upkeep is top notch.

 

[DDW]

Does anyone know who built this boat? Probably Eric Bruckmann? He built all of the 61s I believe.

 

[blurocketsmate]

I was aboard a 61 at a boat show, and liked it a lot.

But even the 50' I cruised on for years was limited in where it could go. Fine in the PNW, but I wouldn't want any bigger. I'd go as small as I could, while still maintaining comfort. For a couple with a couple of guests, a modern 40-45' is plenty, and a lot cheaper to maintain.

 

[socalrider]

Wow, I'm on the wrong coast I guess.

I got a quote for topsides paint for a Stevens 50 3 years ago here in SD and it was around $50k IIRC. Cheapest 60' slip in town would be $20k/yr if you can find one. Our Alerion 28 slip is around $650/mo.

 

[CapDave]

Where to start.....
As others have mentioned, my wife and I, own and sail a C&C 61. We've owned the boat for 20 years, mostly in the Great Lakes but now in the Caribbean. 2024 we'll sail to Europe if we're able to negotiate a retirement visa from Portugal.

Costs: we seem to average about 1.5% of new replacement price. We figure new replacement to be about $2 million so annual maintenance is around $30k. Some years were more, some years were less. It depends on the work we're going to have done. Next year we'll have the hull and deck repainted and the rails removed, repaired, repainted and reinstalled. Hull and deck paint are about $12~$13k each, still waiting on the quote for the rails. Storage is about $650/month but we not generally out of the water for more then the months.

Sailing: minor jumps under 600 miles my wife and I don't take on crew, longer jumps we like 2 to 4 additional people. We find the boat very stable, easy to sail, easy to reef and comfortable while on passage. The main slab reefs and the jib and staysail are on roller furlers. Although it has a big rig it feels docile, maybe because it's a big powerful boat. We can and do sail it on and off anchor or a mooring ball, you get used to how far the boat will carry and the turning radius. Docking is a breeze with a bow thruster. Passaging over the past three years we average about 180 miles a day, upwind, downwind, light or heavy air. We tend to shut down the boat at night and power up during the day.

Overall: We love the boat, it's a fantastic sailing boat, strong as any boat can be, wonderful to live aboard and the space is fantastic. We wouldn't own a smaller boat.

Regarding the 66:. Phantom proved to not be as fast as the 61's. It's not as good a race boat but that's not why someone would buy it today, it'll be bought as a cruising boat. Would my wife and I cruise it, sure it wouldn't be much different then the 61. The size of the boat isn't much of a concern so much as how it's set up to be sailed and docked.

Can I hire you to negotiate all my maintenance and upgrade costs? I can pay you your $30K and still come out ahead!!