Börni
Member
With only 3 month to, I wonder what´s the progress with the different teams? Any updates? What about the boat developments? All very secret this time...
C-Class LittleCup 2015
- Thread starter Börni
- Start date
Steve Clark
Super Anarchist
No one seems to answer so I guess I will.
Event is shaping well, buit will be slightly less well attended than Falmouth.
The Royal Canadians: Fill Your Hands, sailed by Billy and Norm, New foil package.
Groupama: Franc and Louis, refined championship boat.
Hydros 1 &2 both entered but I don't know who is sailing them. Both have new pieces but I don't know specifics.
Sentient Blue, Now German, using Heemskerk foils on 2007 platform and wing. Don't know who is sailing, could be Paul and Helena.
Les Quebecois: Boat racing to the race.
AXON Racing: Sailing Cogito. Boat as sailed in 2013, but actual french will be spoken aboard instead of MacLane's Inspector Clouseau ( CHEIF Inspector Clouseau) style french. Benoit Marie and Benoit Morrelle are training with Clark in the US in July and providing local knowledge in September.
Aethon USA 105, re-grooved for the event with new foils, canting wing and a few other small tricks. As always, we are trying to out think everyone. Steve Clark and Mike Costello. Wing testing going OK, new foils showing up any day, hulls would float now, lotts of other boxes to check. Our stack of Manana cards is waffer thin.
Not showing up:
Invictus Conserving assets and energy for a new build, which weill be delayed until the last possible moment and then will only make it as the result of heroic effort.
Flying Frogs Won't be shipping PLVI to the alps, and hasn't got the mojo to do anything better.
City Of Cascais Portugese boat that made a ceremonial appearance and beam failure at Falmouth..... Sorry but who builds a hollow, curved dolphin striker strap? Who thinks it is a good idea?
Itallia Team from Scily has gone dark, no word ion a while, I think there are some pretty decent hulls there and mnaybe tooling for good wings, but nothing on the water. Lots of promise but no delivery.
I don't know anything more: It seems that someone would put a big rig on a Phantom and try to humiliate us, but I don't think there arte any other actuall C Class catramarans out there that could or would show up.
SHC
Event is shaping well, buit will be slightly less well attended than Falmouth.
The Royal Canadians: Fill Your Hands, sailed by Billy and Norm, New foil package.
Groupama: Franc and Louis, refined championship boat.
Hydros 1 &2 both entered but I don't know who is sailing them. Both have new pieces but I don't know specifics.
Sentient Blue, Now German, using Heemskerk foils on 2007 platform and wing. Don't know who is sailing, could be Paul and Helena.
Les Quebecois: Boat racing to the race.
AXON Racing: Sailing Cogito. Boat as sailed in 2013, but actual french will be spoken aboard instead of MacLane's Inspector Clouseau ( CHEIF Inspector Clouseau) style french. Benoit Marie and Benoit Morrelle are training with Clark in the US in July and providing local knowledge in September.
Aethon USA 105, re-grooved for the event with new foils, canting wing and a few other small tricks. As always, we are trying to out think everyone. Steve Clark and Mike Costello. Wing testing going OK, new foils showing up any day, hulls would float now, lotts of other boxes to check. Our stack of Manana cards is waffer thin.
Not showing up:
Invictus Conserving assets and energy for a new build, which weill be delayed until the last possible moment and then will only make it as the result of heroic effort.
Flying Frogs Won't be shipping PLVI to the alps, and hasn't got the mojo to do anything better.
City Of Cascais Portugese boat that made a ceremonial appearance and beam failure at Falmouth..... Sorry but who builds a hollow, curved dolphin striker strap? Who thinks it is a good idea?
Itallia Team from Scily has gone dark, no word ion a while, I think there are some pretty decent hulls there and mnaybe tooling for good wings, but nothing on the water. Lots of promise but no delivery.
I don't know anything more: It seems that someone would put a big rig on a Phantom and try to humiliate us, but I don't think there arte any other actuall C Class catramarans out there that could or would show up.
SHC
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Thanks Steve for the birds-eye-view update! Sounds like everyone is busy finishing bits and pieces. And yes we (i.e. "les Quebecois") are racing to the race! It looks like we will be the last ones on the water. Having said that, my joker is that we are the only team to have built a entirely new boat, from scratch
Anyway I can give a fresh update from Montreal.
Our hulls are in the last stage of fabrication, i.e. just adding the daggerboard cases. Plateform assembly should be well advanced by the end of the week, depending on a few missing bits and pieces...
A prototype set of our hydrofoils has been tested by the Mystere Composites team on their Espadon Air Design 20ft catamaran. Results have been very encouraging with some good speed and stability. Our set of foils and rudders are being built as we speak by the Mystere team.
The wing is also at an advanced stage of completion. The front element is 90% complete. The flap / rear element is 60% or 70% complete. Most of the wing assembly should be complete by next weekend.
We are on track to be hitting the water on the weekend of July 4th and 5th. We should have 1 months testing and debugging before we ship the full kit to Switzerland.
There are still some questions marks on some key elements, especially shipping and budget. We are keeping our head down and hoping for the best.
I have to give a big shout to all the people who have supported us and helped us get this far, especially all our sponsors who have trusted us to deliver! We hope to make a good showing in Geneva and make them proud.
Overall I have been really impressed by the resourcefulness of the team and what we have manage to achieve considering where we started from. Few would have given us much chances of making it this far. For sure we have had to make many compromises along the way to save time and/or money. The result will be a boat that is slightly heavier than we would have liked but it's not a bad effort for a first attempt. It will be a tremendous plateform to work from in the future.
The team keeps some update and uploads regular photos on our Facebook page, accessible also from our website (http://etsclassc-rafale.ca/)
Juls.
Anyway I can give a fresh update from Montreal.
Our hulls are in the last stage of fabrication, i.e. just adding the daggerboard cases. Plateform assembly should be well advanced by the end of the week, depending on a few missing bits and pieces...
A prototype set of our hydrofoils has been tested by the Mystere Composites team on their Espadon Air Design 20ft catamaran. Results have been very encouraging with some good speed and stability. Our set of foils and rudders are being built as we speak by the Mystere team.
The wing is also at an advanced stage of completion. The front element is 90% complete. The flap / rear element is 60% or 70% complete. Most of the wing assembly should be complete by next weekend.
We are on track to be hitting the water on the weekend of July 4th and 5th. We should have 1 months testing and debugging before we ship the full kit to Switzerland.
There are still some questions marks on some key elements, especially shipping and budget. We are keeping our head down and hoping for the best.
I have to give a big shout to all the people who have supported us and helped us get this far, especially all our sponsors who have trusted us to deliver! We hope to make a good showing in Geneva and make them proud.
Overall I have been really impressed by the resourcefulness of the team and what we have manage to achieve considering where we started from. Few would have given us much chances of making it this far. For sure we have had to make many compromises along the way to save time and/or money. The result will be a boat that is slightly heavier than we would have liked but it's not a bad effort for a first attempt. It will be a tremendous plateform to work from in the future.
The team keeps some update and uploads regular photos on our Facebook page, accessible also from our website (http://etsclassc-rafale.ca/)
Juls.
STYacht.com
Super Anarchist
Maybe it would be a plan to merge the Portuguese wing with the Italian platform?
yard407
New member
STYACHT, Good and low cost idea merging POR and ITA !
yard407
New member
« Hydros I » will be sailed by SUI Team « Norgador » (Jean-Pierre Ziegert and Arnaud Psarofaghis)
Steve Clark
Super Anarchist
I fear the Portugese wing is only suitable for display.
A better choice would be Fredo's thrice rebuilt "Pelican" wing.
It has had to be rebuilt because it works and has been crashed, not because it never was right in the first place.
SHC.
P.S. ST, you guys were the designers of the Itallia program. any G2 A to what happened there?
S
A better choice would be Fredo's thrice rebuilt "Pelican" wing.
It has had to be rebuilt because it works and has been crashed, not because it never was right in the first place.
SHC.
P.S. ST, you guys were the designers of the Itallia program. any G2 A to what happened there?
S
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STYacht.com
Super Anarchist
Hi Steve,
Davide, my partner, was on the design team. He worked on structures and systems. I think money happened, or rather the opposite of money.
Davide, my partner, was on the design team. He worked on structures and systems. I think money happened, or rather the opposite of money.
Board skiff
Super Anarchist
- 1,606
- 672
So, um, silly question - how fast is a C Class? Compared to an F18 or T? Is a wing an essential item, or just a bit of geeky fun?
I guess I'm wondering whether an Olympic level crew could compete in a budget boat against a state of the art design sailed by a good-but-not-Olmpic-standard crew?
I guess I'm wondering whether an Olympic level crew could compete in a budget boat against a state of the art design sailed by a good-but-not-Olmpic-standard crew?
SimonN
Super Anarchist
For me, the wing is the vital ingredient. Consider that some of the sailors are already Olympic standard and that others have been doing it long enough to be seriously good, most would say that without a wing, you would be so far behind it's not worth showing up, however good you are.
A few years ago, Glen Ashby (best cat sailor of his generation?) sailed a boat with Jimmy Spithill crewing and yes,at times he was great but when it came to the final match, the non Olympic crew of Fred and Magnus had too much speed for them and could sail their boat sufficiently well enough to win comfortably.
yard407
New member
Steve Clark
Super Anarchist
It all depends on how fast everyone really is rather than how fast they say they are.
We definitely crush T Cats, so by extension F-18s and anything else that doesn't foil.
Reports from the foiling cats are so glowing that I'm skeptical.
I cannot recall being passed by anything that wasn't another C Cat.... or 55 feet long.
SHC
We definitely crush T Cats, so by extension F-18s and anything else that doesn't foil.
Reports from the foiling cats are so glowing that I'm skeptical.
I cannot recall being passed by anything that wasn't another C Cat.... or 55 feet long.
SHC
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- Moderator
- #14
My loose calcs from last LAC showed that Moth is faster around a course in anything over 7 knots, same with GC32 or other foiling cats in that size range. C gets smoked downhill.
Don't have sufficient data on Nacra FCS20 or Phantom, it's probably more of a foil design/sailor skill and RM question for the cats in similar size range.
Not sure anything in the world is as quick as 2010 C-Class winner Canaan in under 6 knots, but certainly the C is still 'the fastest course racing boat in the world' in only a very narrow range of conditions. Very excited to see if development since '13 means the C has regained some of her crown.
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Steve Clark
Super Anarchist
Yeah I have seen the numbers as well.
I just never experienced them.
SHC
I just never experienced them.
SHC
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
Its probably a comparison about as reliable as an angler's estimate of fish size, but in the UK Portsmouth Yardstick system the International Moth has just achieved a faster rating than the 1973 C Class catamaran one, which was the lowest ever previously. That was in the days of conventional rigs, not even wing masts. Back then the Cs were sensationally faster than everything else on the water. I'm not sure things are so very different now.
gui
Anarchist
Could be easily tested, there's a moth fleet just a few miles away with some pretty good sailors. I don't know what the #'s are, but my guess is that the moth would need more than 7 kts to not look too ridiculous. When are you shipping your boats Steve?
Lost in Translation
Super Anarchist
If an M32 beats a moth, would not a top of the line C?
I think it would only be in a very narrow wind and wave range where a moth could potentially be faster than a C. Some of the days at last year's C regatta might have suited the moth but certainly not the light ones. On the other hand most of the big/rough days at this years Sorrento moth regatta would have destroyed all of the CCats.
If its under 12 kts wind the moth will sail upwind and down wind at wide angles and I think the C with its rig up in better winds would have the advantage. Above 20kts wind the C becomes a handful but the moth can keep going up to 30 if the water is flat enough. But even in 15kts if the water is too rough the C will keep going while the moths will be crashing or slowing down for safety. I suspect the Cs might have an effective wave size limit too but surely its bigger than the moth safety limit.
In moderate winds and smooth waters the moths are only moderately faster than the ACats upwind. The C's would have to be quicker. Downwond the Moths are way quicker than even the foiling As and while the Cs are quicker than the As obviously, I am not sure they are as quick as the good moths.
Top guys rarely get to 30 kts boat speed while racing, mid fleeters like me rarely get over 25, All the big numbers are in extreme conditions without aiming for VMG to a mark. The guy who claimed 36 placed behnd me at Sorrento so I doubt he got over 25, which makes his 36 a bit suspect. Neither the As nor Cs are not going any faster. All the big numbers from CG32 and beach cat foilers in races are in the same range.
The GC 32 has gone faster at times, so in some conditions it may well be the fastest of this bunch, especially now they have been raced hard by good people for a while and they must be learning how to get more out of them.
Thats long been the problem with C Cats, its always been a design race with boats finished too late to sort out and optimise on the water. I am not sure that has changed at all based on Steve's list of potential entries this year.
Great boats to follow though, always brilliant ideas, been that way since the 60s. More please.
If its under 12 kts wind the moth will sail upwind and down wind at wide angles and I think the C with its rig up in better winds would have the advantage. Above 20kts wind the C becomes a handful but the moth can keep going up to 30 if the water is flat enough. But even in 15kts if the water is too rough the C will keep going while the moths will be crashing or slowing down for safety. I suspect the Cs might have an effective wave size limit too but surely its bigger than the moth safety limit.
In moderate winds and smooth waters the moths are only moderately faster than the ACats upwind. The C's would have to be quicker. Downwond the Moths are way quicker than even the foiling As and while the Cs are quicker than the As obviously, I am not sure they are as quick as the good moths.
Top guys rarely get to 30 kts boat speed while racing, mid fleeters like me rarely get over 25, All the big numbers are in extreme conditions without aiming for VMG to a mark. The guy who claimed 36 placed behnd me at Sorrento so I doubt he got over 25, which makes his 36 a bit suspect. Neither the As nor Cs are not going any faster. All the big numbers from CG32 and beach cat foilers in races are in the same range.
The GC 32 has gone faster at times, so in some conditions it may well be the fastest of this bunch, especially now they have been raced hard by good people for a while and they must be learning how to get more out of them.
Thats long been the problem with C Cats, its always been a design race with boats finished too late to sort out and optimise on the water. I am not sure that has changed at all based on Steve's list of potential entries this year.
Great boats to follow though, always brilliant ideas, been that way since the 60s. More please.
- Moderator
- #20
hahahaha
you're not still on that video, are you? We should have put something up at the beginning that says: "For entertainment only."
