Cable less Code Zero development

sailorman44

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At the end of the Sydney-Hobart race, Comanche was carrying a huge Code zero. It's foot must be 85-90 feet. From the angle of the video there was no sag in the luff of the sail. So, does it have an elliptical luff that projects to windward or an anti torsion cable with huge tension on it?
 
Last year in SA there was an extensive thread on cable less/elliptical luff code zeros. Since then, not much. Anything happening?
 
The January issue of Seahorse had a story(page 68) about North Sail's Helix development program. Seems there are problems getting a good furl so North has gone to top down furling with a luff cable.
 
 
 
 

crankcall

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Doyle seems to be a leader on this right now and are getting some traction looking at the rest of the sail package when they have been largely ignored. They have quite a few big dollar boats running thiers and report with a specially sewn luff they can get better projection to windward and greatly reduce halyard tension, which is reducing decompression on rigs and thus loads on the boat. I think the same issue of Seahorse in January had an article about decompression which was mostly this stuff.

 

markvannote

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Newport, RI
That was a "standard" code zero with cable in the luff pocket and not a cable-less sail. North logo on the front so it would have been an original sail to the boat. There is no lack of backstay/forestay tension in that boat especially in 5-8 knots of breeze.

Tons of development has gone into cable-less sails including North's Helix, Doyle and Quantum. One sailmaker I know who was seriously questioning it as a gimmick has fully drank the punch and loves them. Given his past and current customer base I am happy to listen to him. The shape and benefits of a positive luff profile was always going to be good. The biggest concern was in the furl as we had all gone with top/down systems for IRC masthead zeros because of all that garbage high luff to achieve 75% mid-girth. The cable-less sails have proven to furl just fine. I have not sailed with one myself but spend a bit of time worrying about such things and believe it is the way forward. I would guess that 75% of the zeros built in 2020 will be cable-less. 

Thanks

Mark

 

crankcall

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The cableless sail for us 4ktsb crowd means it doesnt need 3 guys the wrestle it onto the foredeck and a huge bag to store it in, it will package up nicely as your not coiling a big stiff cable. The big race programs will fund the developemnet but the trickle down for the rest of us will be a real benefit. Finally.

 
The cableless sail for us 4ktsb crowd means it doesnt need 3 guys the wrestle it onto the foredeck and a huge bag to store it in, it will package up nicely as your not coiling a big stiff cable. The big race programs will fund the developemnet but the trickle down for the rest of us will be a real benefit. Finally.
We need another year or two for the price to come down on the cable less sails.

 

crankcall

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It always comes down to price. My sailmaker friend (not associsted with a big name) told me yesterday there have been some spectacular failures in cable less sails lately and the discussion is leaning towards 'smaller' cables....

 

sailorman44

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I spoke to a Doyle loft seeking the answer to that very question. The Doyle rep said that it was the Doyle cableless. Earlier in the thread markvannote said that it was the North cable code zero from the original inventory. Looking again at the video I agree with markvannote. Around time 40 it looks like a north logo on the J1. Just after, when they roll out the the code zero the logo looks the same. Later on, at time 51, when the wind dies, there is a closer look at the code zero and the North logo is clearer.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueVM-6PuHr0&t=3393s
 

JonRowe

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I mean this sail:

Screen Shot 2020-01-09 at 21.05.29.png

The main looks to have a Doyle logo in a earlier closer shot and the jib logo appears to match but I am definitely guessing... 

Screen Shot 2020-01-09 at 21.05.58.png

 

markvannote

Member
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Newport, RI
I mean this sail:

View attachment 340623

The main looks to have a Doyle logo in a earlier closer shot and the jib logo appears to match but I am definitely guessing... 

View attachment 340624
Yeah, this sail appears to be Doyle. Which video is this? Would like to get a view of what appears to be a furling non-overlapping sail and figure out why you would even do that.

(I started watching the finish live and until the end so maybe there was a peel I missed.)

 

JonRowe

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Yeah, this sail appears to be Doyle. Which video is this?
Its the finish video, a bit earlier on as they came to the Derwent (36:00),  you can see them about to launch the zero in the second screenshot (37:19), they then peel to the zero.

Would like to get a view of what appears to be a furling non-overlapping sail and figure out why you would even do that.
Well if its a structured sail i'd make sense right? Plus you get the ease of handling a furling sail rather than a huge jib.

 

sailorman44

Member
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71
CT/FL
Seems to me that putting an anti torsion cable in a cableless sail is a step back. One of the selling points of cableless technology was that it didn't need an expensive anti torsion cable.  And I would guess that  a made to order cable from Future Fibers would be expensive. 

 
My other question is, how does top down furling on a code zero work. On Asyms the cable is external to the sail and the sail wraps around the cable. Talking to a North guy, the cable is internal to the luff, the head is strapped to the cable at the top. The cable is attached to the top down furler and the tack is attached to the swivel on the furler. The cable spins inside the luff pocket as the sail unfurls and furls. How is this not a recipe for disaster, especially with a slack cable( load sharing, remember) What keeps the cable from grabbing fabric inside the luff pocket and starting a premature furl in the middle of the sail? What does that do to the unfurl?


 
When I talked to the Doyle loft they said that the reason North needed an anti torsion cable is that they hadn't got the elliptical luff technology right, that Doyle code zeros did not need a cable to furl. [SIZE=medium]Does Doyle have a patent [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]that North has to work around?[/SIZE]
 
Dising the compilation or true? When you talk to a local loft of a big name sailmaker who are you talking to? A salesman or someone with technical knowledge? The way sailmaking has developed the local guy takes orders but the design and build is done at a centralized location. When I talk to my local sailmaker I am talking to the guy that designs and builds the sail.
 

 

JonRowe

Super Anarchist
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984
Offshore.
When I talked to the Doyle loft they said that the reason North needed an anti torsion cable is that they hadn't got the elliptical luff technology right, that Doyle code zeros did not need a cable to furl. [SIZE=medium]Does Doyle have a patent [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]that North has to work around?[/SIZE]
I hope so, turn around being fair play and all...

 

markvannote

Member
376
25
Newport, RI
Seems to me that putting an anti torsion cable in a cableless sail is a step back. One of the selling points of cableless technology was that it didn't need an expensive anti torsion cable.  And I would guess that  a made to order cable from Future Fibers would be expensive. 

 
My other question is, how does top down furling on a code zero work. On Asyms the cable is external to the sail and the sail wraps around the cable. Talking to a North guy, the cable is internal to the luff, the head is strapped to the cable at the top. The cable is attached to the top down furler and the tack is attached to the swivel on the furler. The cable spins inside the luff pocket as the sail unfurls and furls. How is this not a recipe for disaster, especially with a slack cable( load sharing, remember) What keeps the cable from grabbing fabric inside the luff pocket and starting a premature furl in the middle of the sail? What does that do to the unfurl?


 
When I talked to the Doyle loft they said that the reason North needed an anti torsion cable is that they hadn't got the elliptical luff technology right, that Doyle code zeros did not need a cable to furl. [SIZE=medium]Does Doyle have a patent [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]that North has to work around?[/SIZE]
 
Dising the compilation or true? When you talk to a local loft of a big name sailmaker who are you talking to? A salesman or someone with technical knowledge? The way sailmaking has developed the local guy takes orders but the design and build is done at a centralized location. When I talk to my local sailmaker I am talking to the guy that designs and builds the sail.
 
Skipping the Helix part of this conversation for a second, top/down with internal luff cable has been going on for a while now. Most IRC 75% girth masthead zeros, Volvo 65 A3's, Gunboat A3's and screachers. I do have personal experience with this and it's fantastic.

 

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