Can a C880 safely cross Nantucket Sound?

SailingTips.Ca

Feigns Knowledge
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Victoria, BC
My F242 is for sale in NJ. I trailer and set it up myself and have had a blast. https://newjersey.craigslist.org/boa/d/mount-arlington-corsair-242-trimaran/7518212447.html
I think the F242 is also a great F-boat "trainer" with the benefit of being able to camp inside of it.

You can thrash it, not get into too much trouble, and it keeps coming back for more.

Beach cat is a better teacher of high-performance multihull skills, but is not as conducive to camping, introducing others to sailing etc.

Everything in sailing is a compromise!!!
 

munt

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Yes, F24 is a wonderful boat but... Big difference: not only will he learn a lot more sailing skills in a beachcat but he can buy approximately 15 of them for the price of the F24.
 

Wess

Super Anarchist
You can’t afford to make a mistake in an F24. A capsize can be fatal. At least to the wallet. Get a beach cat you can self right and go make mistakes. Unless you are very cautious an F-boat ain’t a great first “big” boat IMHO. But if you were going down that path the F-24 would be the way to go.
 

gbkersey

Member
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93
Austin, TX
You can’t afford to make a mistake in an F24. A capsize can be fatal. At least to the wallet. Get a beach cat you can self right and go make mistakes. Unless you are very cautious an F-boat ain’t a great first “big” boat IMHO. But if you were going down that path the F-24 would be the way to go.
Capsize is not likely to be fatal and in fresh water not so expensive... Don't ask me how I know...
 
Just going to jump on the "beach cat before big tri" bandwagon. I sailed and raced my H16 for 15 years before I bought my F31R... I made all sorts of dumb moves on the H16 on lakes, SF Bay, and the ocean, and it rarely cost more than repairing some fiberglass or the trap line bungees. Flipping was how you know you're having fun.

When I got the F-31 it feels like a very big, powerful cat, but the reaction times are quite a bit slower, precise weight and position matter less, and so on. It was more a matter of learning the systems, and how to handle the higher loads, than how to sail it. I compare that to my mono-slug friends I bring aboard, and they just aren't prepared at first for how fast things happen blasting along on an F31 in 20-30kts of wind on San Francisco Bay. I certainly wouldn't hand them the tiller. Another example: most mono-slug sailors I know don't keep the mainsheet in hand when it's getting spicy. The beachcat sailors do it instinctively. That's a good thing.

And sailing a H16 made me VERY VERY wary of putting the F31 ama bows anywhere near the water...
 

munt

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I was sailing on a relatively fast 25 ft. cat with the spin up in about 15 knots of breeze. The driver, who mostly sails monos, is pretty skilled but he had the main and spin sheets tangled up under his feet. After a few minutes I couldn't take it anymore and had to gather and sort the sheets and put the mainsheet across his knee and held the spin sheet myself. The idea of not having sheets absolutely ready is nauseating to me because I spent most of my early sailing years as a broke beachcat sailor. Even on monos I can't conceive of any reason not to have sheets at hand. Almost every multihull accident starts with either sheets not at hand or in the hand of the wrong person. The F24 is fantastic but if it's your learner boat it could create lots of complacency and slow reflexes. But it is a very good boat...
 

MultiThom

Super Anarchist
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Benicia, CA
Couple things about the F242--which was my first boat. It has a short mast and is heavy for its length compared to more modern designs. You can (I did) sail with no reef in winds above 25 and gusts to 35 (of course, the courses we raced were wind-lee, so easy escapes-little reaching, if any). So it is very forgiving for a beginner. Only a couple F242s have ever capsized despite being sailed by newbys a lot. I didn't sail or own a beachcat until after I sold the F242--so I am prejudiced in this. Where I sail the water is cold, I am old, the current is bold...so I am not sold....on the thought of a beachcat before tri. Of all the boats I owned, I had the beachcat (heavy Hobie Getaway that I modified with a reefpoint and small spinnaker) only a couple years because I was certain I could not right it solo in 2 kt current and 55 degree water in the prevailing 15-25 kt winds which are prevalent in the Carquinez. It was fun, don't get me wrong, but, for me, a tri is a funner toy. Of course, you do have to be able to afford one. Figure a F242 will cost about the cost of a used beachcat EVERY YEAR to keep it whole if you sail it hard (race weekly).
 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
I was sailing on a relatively fast 25 ft. cat with the spin up in about 15 knots of breeze. The driver, who mostly sails monos, is pretty skilled but he had the main and spin sheets tangled up under his feet. After a few minutes I couldn't take it anymore and had to gather and sort the sheets and put the mainsheet across his knee and held the spin sheet myself. The idea of not having sheets absolutely ready is nauseating to me because I spent most of my early sailing years as a broke beachcat sailor. Even on monos I can't conceive of any reason not to have sheets at hand. Almost every multihull accident starts with either sheets not at hand or in the hand of the wrong person. The F24 is fantastic but if it's your learner boat it could create lots of complacency and slow reflexes. But it is a very good boat...
yet blowing the mainsheet is a reason for lots of broken masts when the kites up....
 

munt

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I have never seen that happen myself. EASING the main and spin in a timely manner certainly shouldn't break the mast. Blowing the main completely in an emergency (no backstays engaged?) ok....maybe that's broken some masts, especially on a slow boat that can't sail out from under itself..? Are you suggesting it's better to let the boat flip than risking a broken mast?
 

Skippertri

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Yes, F24 is a wonderful boat but... Big difference: not only will he learn a lot more sailing skills in a beachcat but he can buy approximately 15 of them for the price of the F24.
Hey man,

I am in the market for a Weta. It will be my first sailboat, and I'll learn on it and eventually sail it like a maniac in some coastal ocean waters. After reading your comments, I wonder if I should go with a beachcat instead. I'll sail solo though.
 
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yet blowing the mainsheet is a reason for lots of broken masts when the kites up....
Obviously, depends on the situation. To state the obvious, if the kite is up, or the screacher is in use, those sheets usually get eased or released first... assuming someone has them in hand... Generally, though, the 'out' when those sails are in use is to steer down; if the rudder starts cavitating easing the main a little (not blowing it, just allowing it to twist off) can help the boat rotate downwind. On a higher-wind main/jib reach, though, there's that split second where an eased main will allow you to transition down through the zone-of-death, or feather up quickly to depower... and which to do, and when, is something I think beachcat sailing gave me rather good instinctive reflexes on...

That said... realistically, I'm more than a little of a chicken on the F-31. On the H16, I know exactly where the edge of control is and love to skate right along it, and more than occasionally go over the edge. And that's fun. On the F-31... I don't know where the edge is. I don't want to find it, because it's a very expensive edge to go over. I rather suspect all my "fast reflexes" and "instinctive actions" are keeping the boat at 50% of what it really could do... It can take a lot more than I can. I suspect it would survive a cautious newbie that reefed early and often, and didn't try to fly the chute under the Golden Gate in a breeze...
 
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munt

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In reply to Skippertri, Wetas are great boats, excellent for learning but a bit more complex than a beachcat due to the gennaker and a couple other little things. The best things about the beachcat, imho, are that it's cheap, fast, fun and a great feedback machine for learning. You can buy at least 2 or 3 nice beachcats for the price of a good used Weta.
Mr. Red Herring, I agree, the F31 is pretty powerful in a venue like SF and the consequences of a flip could be severe. In my few times on the 31 in heavier air (25+ish) if driven too hard the boat would bury its ama pretty darn deep, slow way down to a near stop and just kinda sit there. I've often heard that's what Sir Farrier wanted and I've seen it happen in person. I also know a very good, very competetive sailor who managed to flip his F27. I heard he was flying full main and spin in big air and probably shorthanded, he being a maniac ( in a good way). So it can be done but I'd guess that the really good skippers are subtly depowering ahead of the curve to go faster. MultiThom would have the answers to these great mysteries. I also enjoyed the French guys in the vid on another thread explaining how they depower, especially in the "death zone!"
 

MultiThom

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My boat did the same thing when the lee ama buried, slow down (stop) and sit there (stern high) until you released sheets, then it would pop back up and off you go. Only happened a few times in 12 years. Worst occasions had rookie spin sheet guy or rookie driver and mainsheet wouldn't release. My process was to drive deep as first response in gust or shift. If can't change course I eased mainsheet...; I found that mainsheet controlled the boat heel at least for a while, then, if main is no longer doing anything (let out to shrouds) tell spin trimmer that he has to release spin sheet if lee bow dips. A cool thing to see is the mainsail backwinded by wind off the spinnaker. A recent F28 capsize had the boat just complete a gybe when it went over...I didn't win many races so I'm not the fastest driver and one of the reasons I am a lousy driver is that I pretty much always gybed too soon, so the next course was nearly always too deep. I have always been safety first despite the adrenaline pumping in a race.
 
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munt

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That's always an interesting question...too soon to jibe??? If someone could find the old sfbama account of the F25 that got caught out in very bad conditions (Farallones race) it was a great read and very instructional. For those that don't know I can testify that the conditions in SF and especially around the Farallones are on the next level. Very cold, very windy with very large waves and apex predators in numbers looking for an easy snack. Picture the line at Chic Fillet and you're the chicken. The guys that sail multis up there have to be on point. Even on a day where the air is warm the water will kill you quickly.
 

Skippertri

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In reply to Skippertri, Wetas are great boats, excellent for learning but a bit more complex than a beachcat due to the gennaker and a couple other little things. The best things about the beachcat, imho, are that it's cheap, fast, fun and a great feedback machine for learning. You can buy at least 2 or 3 nice )....
Thanks man, I'll think about that.
 

Skippertri

New member
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In reply to Skippertri, Wetas are great boats, excellent for learning but a bit more complex than a beachcat due to the gennaker and a couple other little things. The best things about the beachcat, imho, are that it's cheap, fast, fun and a great feedback machine for learning. You can buy at least 2 or 3 nice beachcats for the price of a good used Weta.

You got me at cheap, but I've been having difficulty finding those good deals on beachcats. A Nacra is more or less same price as a Weta, used or new. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong places. Especially, if I can car top a beachcat on my truck, I will be saving even more $s.
 
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munt

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Look on thebeachcats.com. I've also heard of this new thing called the "craigslist" but not sure if it's real..? Again, Wetas are outstanding but show me a good used 1 for less than 5-7k. If you spend more than 1500 on a Nacra 5.2, a Prindle 16 or 18, for a Hobie 16 or 18 etc. then you probly got hosed. If one of the above is really good then maybe 2-2500???
 

Skippertri

New member
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Look on thebeachcats.com. I've also heard of this new thing called the "craigslist" but not sure if it's real..? Again, Wetas are outstanding but show me a good used 1 for less than 5-7k. If you spend more than 1500 on a Nacra 5.2, a Prindle 16 or 18, for a Hobie 16 or 18 etc. then you probly got hosed. If one of the above is really good then maybe 2-2500???
Craigslist... Never have gotten lucky there!? OK, some good deals on thebeachcats.com - getting somewhere. Lots of Nacra 5.2s, which I like. A good one for about $2-3k would be awesome. What's there to lose? If a beachcat doesn't work for me, then I can sell it for the same price and shop for a Weta. Might not be able to do the same with a Weta on the pricey side though. Good deal, will think about it. Thanks.
 
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